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00:00:02
as you probably know I've always been00:00:04
fascinated by the medieval period so I00:00:06
jumped at the chance to talk to Ellena00:00:08
yena about what life was really like in00:00:11
the Middle Ages what the people must00:00:13
have been like and what they can tell us00:00:16
about the way we live00:00:18
today welcome to Future00:00:23
[Music]00:00:26
imperfect what do you think modern00:00:28
people in particular get very about the00:00:30
Medieval Age and what do we make00:00:32
mistakes about in particular as far as00:00:33
you're concerned I think that the00:00:35
biggest problem that we have in terms of00:00:38
the way we relate to Medieval people is00:00:40
by thinking a they are very different00:00:42
from us and B they're stupid that's kind00:00:44
of the biggest thing so we are very much00:00:47
you know what I always say is that if I00:00:50
ever meet The Ghost of voler I will00:00:51
fight him because a lot of this has to00:00:54
do specifically with you know ideas from00:00:57
the Enlightenment and voler in00:00:58
particular was on a big Crusade and he's00:01:00
like the church is very bad the church00:01:01
is very evil and anyone who ever ever00:01:05
was a Catholic was stupid and bad and00:01:07
wrong for going along with Catholicism00:01:10
essentially and of course one of the00:01:12
major features of the medieval period is00:01:14
that you know to be a Christian in00:01:16
Western Europe I mean obviously not in00:01:18
Constantinople is to be a Catholic and00:01:21
so therefore you can just write them off00:01:22
like never a thought entered their minds00:01:25
and they're often kind of placed in00:01:27
opposition with for example Roman people00:01:29
and it's like oh stuff was great in the00:01:30
Roman period everyone was very smart00:01:33
it's absolutely brilliant and then the00:01:35
Middle Ages hit everyone forgets00:01:36
everything and becomes an idiot and it's00:01:38
just not true and in fact a lot of the00:01:40
things that we like to pick medieval00:01:42
people for and say oh well you can tell00:01:43
that they're stupid because they believe00:01:45
in humoral Theory I'm like homeboy Galen00:01:48
came up with humoral Theory all the00:01:50
Romans believe in humoral Theory there00:01:53
wasn't like workable medicine workable00:01:55
medicine doesn't come along until the00:01:56
19th century so maybe be a little kinder00:01:59
to people for believing that if you want00:02:01
to be that mad at anyone in the tutor00:02:04
period as well go for it but why is it00:02:06
that we focus on medieval people having00:02:08
said that there's obviously a lot of00:02:10
ways which they are different to us00:02:12
because part of the reason that those00:02:14
criticisms stand really well is you know00:02:16
they've got a completely different way00:02:18
of thinking about um knowledge for00:02:19
example so you know they kind of see um00:02:22
knowledge or learning as a cumulative00:02:24
process over time between all people you00:02:27
know the phrase standing on the00:02:28
shoulders of giants is medieval one so00:02:31
it comes from the idea that well there's00:02:33
the ancient philosophers and we can get00:02:35
where we can get because they've already00:02:36
done this work and we can see that so00:02:39
systems of knowledge don't seek to kind00:02:41
of rewrite anything they seek to build00:02:43
so they're always assuming that there's00:02:45
a Bedrock of what's correct and then you00:02:47
simply build on top of that which makes00:02:49
a lot of sense if you think about it but00:02:51
we in Era where we've really change the00:02:54
way that we think about knowledge you00:02:55
know we are saying that you have to00:02:57
consistently say now is that true go00:03:00
back over and over and over again and00:03:01
double check that this thing is correct00:03:03
and sometimes you tear down an entire00:03:05
field of knowledge because you say00:03:06
that's not correct anymore no sorry00:03:07
we've got this proof over here we look00:03:09
at Medieval people and say well that's00:03:11
nonsensical I don't know how you could00:03:13
relate to knowledge like that but what I00:03:15
try to remind myself of is that a lot of00:03:17
knowledge now is still received you know00:03:18
for example I know that germ theory is00:03:20
real because some scientists told me00:03:21
germ theory is real and I've just said00:03:23
right you are fantastic uh little bugs00:03:25
on everything is it great got it fine00:03:27
moving on with my life you know I don't00:03:29
go check that so there are still some00:03:32
elements that are you know very similar00:03:35
about our life but we just don't think00:03:37
about things in quite the same way and I00:03:39
think that's a huge cultural shift00:03:40
really I did a a video Once on the map00:03:43
of Munday which was really interesting00:03:44
because this was a fascinating mind map00:03:47
in many ways I mean people say oh it's00:03:49
not very accurate map but it's actually00:03:51
geographically accurate in certain areas00:03:53
in the local area the sort of Western00:03:54
Europe and it gets it gets more and more00:03:56
odd they more and more mythologically00:03:58
entwined the further away it gets I mean00:04:01
they put Jerusalem right in the middle00:04:03
of it because their worldview was00:04:05
Jerusalem was it and then the further00:04:07
east you start to which is up on the map00:04:10
of Munday you get to heaven eventually00:04:12
literally you get to heaven and there's00:04:14
Heaven and Hell and Gates Sinners and00:04:15
everything and so this mappa was part00:04:20
Atlas but also part reference for00:04:23
mythologies it's got what we would call00:04:25
real mythologies it's got um the Golden00:04:27
Fleece and it's got all these but it's00:04:29
also got what they considered possibly00:04:31
to be mythology like the Red Sea which00:04:35
was colored red because none of the00:04:37
people that made it and it's called the00:04:38
Red Sea so presumably it's red which is00:04:41
interesting and then it's got a little00:04:42
it's got the path of the Israelites00:04:44
wandering for 40 years or sort of00:04:46
squiggle roughly where they thought it00:04:48
was and it's got mythical beasts as well00:04:51
and some real beasts and so this sort of00:04:53
melange of real world and it getting the00:04:56
further physically away from you the00:04:59
more myth ology sort of takes over as we00:05:01
understand it as fascinating it's a00:05:03
really interesting thing sorry to just00:05:04
jump in I'm so excited because I think00:05:06
you you've really got it nailed on the00:05:09
head here because what the mapa Mundy00:05:11
kind of does you're right it's not a00:05:13
thing that you could take and say okay00:05:15
well that's it I'm going to get in a00:05:16
boat and sail somewhere but that's not00:05:18
what it's intending to do so like a map00:05:20
of Mundy is doing exactly what it is00:05:22
you're saying here where it's bringing00:05:24
together you know well here's what we00:05:25
know about what actual geography is and00:05:28
here's where that makes sense in our00:05:30
cosmological understanding of the world00:05:33
and you know if you are some guy from00:05:36
let's say Northern Germany right to you00:05:38
an elephant is every bit as mythological00:05:41
as say a Bleier who are the guys you'll00:05:44
see on mapam mundies and their faces and00:05:45
their tummy they don't have a head or00:05:47
there's the skopod who live in Africa00:05:49
and they have one giant foot that they00:05:51
jump around on and they will lay down00:05:53
and use it to shade themselves from the00:05:54
Sun and who's to say which of those00:05:57
things are real and not if you've never00:06:00
left the continent of Europe you maybe00:06:01
never left northern Europe right but00:06:04
what it does is it positions Europeans00:06:06
in terms of how they see the world00:06:09
around them and more specifically really00:06:11
you know they don't have a concept of00:06:12
being Europeans they have a concept of00:06:14
being Christians and they say well this00:06:16
is what the world is like here's how00:06:19
land Works here's how again the00:06:22
mythology is all there right because00:06:24
they very much like to have all of the00:06:26
Greek mythology the Roman mythology00:06:28
they're they're going to take all of00:06:29
that right but they're just going to put00:06:31
some God on top of it right so you can00:06:33
have the Golden Fleece but then you also00:06:35
have to have heaven to be like but just00:06:37
to be clear we are not endorsing Zeus00:06:38
you know something like that so this is00:06:41
how you bring all of history together00:06:43
along with theological World Views in00:06:45
order to have a map of how Christians00:06:48
see themselves in the world it's not a00:06:49
map of the world per se but it is a map00:06:52
of society in in another and more00:06:54
interesting way I would argue yes I00:06:56
sometimes liken it to sort of almost a00:06:58
mind map um when you're studying a00:07:00
subject and you sort of the subject's in00:07:02
the middle and you can draw little lines00:07:04
off it and some of them are tiny details00:07:06
some of them are big sections and and of00:07:08
course there is a slightly more00:07:09
practical side of it as well which was00:07:11
it was a tourist attraction yes it was a00:07:13
way of visiting places without visiting00:07:16
them obviously Cathedrals needed money00:07:18
and there's an awful lot of investment00:07:20
in physical investment in cathedrals and00:07:22
obviously there praying for people's00:07:24
spirituality but you also needed money00:07:27
and as more things you had there was I00:07:29
think it was Herford Cathedral there's a00:07:31
there's a shrine of St Thomas there who00:07:34
cured wounds and you could stick a00:07:36
wounded Lim into the shrine to get it00:07:40
cured you could buy a wax model of your00:07:42
bad foot and take it into the thing and00:07:46
hang it next to the sanctuary and pray00:07:49
for it and also then you could go and00:07:51
have a look at the map of Mundy on your00:07:52
way and pay some money it was almost00:07:55
like a theme park a religious theme park00:07:58
in many ways so there's obviously the00:07:59
spiritual side of it but there's also00:08:01
the journey and the more prosaic00:08:04
souvenirs and as you know they souvenirs00:08:06
are really important for the medieval00:08:08
mind medieval people do travel you know00:08:10
there is this tendency to think well you00:08:12
know you're born on a farm and you die00:08:13
on a farm and that's not necessarily the00:08:15
case you know people go on pilgrimage00:08:16
all the time and really normal average00:08:19
people go on pilgrimage now I am not00:08:21
here to tell you that every single00:08:22
person makes it to Jerusalem which is00:08:24
everybody's goal but you know you might00:08:26
make it to the local Cathedral or not00:08:28
the local Cathedral right you might make00:08:30
it if you're from har fure you might00:08:32
make it to Canterbury for example and00:08:35
that is what is so great about having a00:08:37
map of Mundy too because you know you00:08:38
say you've gone on this pilgrimage of a00:08:40
couple hundred miles you know and here00:08:42
you are spring break wo you're having a00:08:43
great time and then you get to see a map00:08:45
of Mundy as well and you're like yes I'm00:08:47
very worldly I am connected in with the00:08:50
conception of travel this is what the00:08:52
world means to me and I think it's also00:08:54
really interesting when we think about00:08:56
like the little wax feet and stuff like00:08:58
that is that this is also something that00:09:01
uh medial people have in common again00:09:02
with Romans which is that um Romans had00:09:05
the exact same Medical Practice which is00:09:07
like oh is there something wrong with00:09:08
you you should go pray to a God and we00:09:10
have lots of little uh kind of plaster00:09:14
body parts and things that you would go00:09:16
and you would leave them at whatever00:09:17
Shrine it was and have a little prayer00:09:19
so there isn't really a huge difference00:09:22
in terms of yeah medicine not so00:09:25
workable so you know prayer is as good00:09:27
as anything else yeah they they they00:09:28
were quite good at the um well not good00:09:30
but they had practical Battlefield00:09:33
surgery and things like that but I think00:09:34
for chronic things like bad back or00:09:37
anything like I don't think there was00:09:38
much they could do about it but part00:09:40
from prey but for things like slashes to00:09:42
the face and the arm and arrow wounds00:09:44
there's quite a lot of practical00:09:45
experience yes it's really interesting00:09:47
surgery is the thing they're quite good00:09:49
at they can do ocular surgery they can00:09:52
do surgery on retile fistulas which is00:09:55
extraordinarily difficult they can do00:09:57
all kinds of battle they can reset set a00:09:59
bone they can do the sort of practical00:10:01
if you need to put two things back00:10:03
together they can figure that out really00:10:04
well but then if you get any kind of00:10:06
bacterial disease you know your your00:10:07
guess is is good any I often think about00:10:09
it as as a little bit like medical craft00:10:11
skills they're actually quite good00:10:14
practical skills they've got you know00:10:16
they can stitch up a person because a00:10:18
lot of people had physical skills that00:10:20
are perhaps in Decline today with a few00:10:22
notable exceptions that a lot of people00:10:24
don't do these things for themselves00:10:26
because they don't need to whereas back00:10:27
in the medieval period and of course the00:10:29
medieval period is a very long period of00:10:31
time so we we we're horribly00:10:34
generalizing when we talk about what's00:10:36
medieval yes yes that's right you know00:10:38
I'm we're just doing a quick 1100 years00:10:40
it's fine exactly and and I think craft00:10:42
skills and awareness of what bodies were00:10:45
like came with the territory if you were00:10:47
butchering your own meat you kind of get00:10:50
an understanding of what's inside00:10:52
animals and probably inside people as00:10:54
well and um you know sex sexuality and00:10:57
child birth was incredibly risky and00:11:00
infant mortality was surprisingly high00:11:03
and you know so the the tragedy of life00:11:06
and the physicality of it I think was a00:11:08
was an everpresent thing and I think00:11:10
apart from a few places today in the00:11:12
world one of the biggest things is the00:11:15
realization that most children in the00:11:17
Western World anyway will grow to00:11:19
adulthood whereas it was probably 50/5000:11:21
in the medieval period oh yes absolutely00:11:24
that's one of the biggest differences00:11:26
and it it's even when we talk about um00:11:28
infant mortal that's really a 20th00:11:30
century thing it's it wasn't until the00:11:31
20th century that we really tackled it00:11:33
we do see things get slightly better but00:11:36
you know go to any of The Magnificent00:11:38
Seven here in London and see the number00:11:41
of small children who are buried you00:11:43
know and and they're Victorian but yes00:11:45
it's it is interesting as well because00:11:47
infant mortality is extraordinarily high00:11:49
in the medieval period and that gives00:11:51
people a really skewed idea about life00:11:54
expectancy as well because you know one00:11:57
of the big myths I hear over and over00:11:59
again is that um oh you would be an old00:12:01
man if you were 32 in the medieval00:12:02
period and we're like no because what00:12:05
the people are doing is they will hear00:12:07
the average life expectancy and the00:12:08
average life expectancy works out to be00:12:10
about 35 or so but that's because if 50%00:12:13
of all people die as infants so they're00:12:16
at an age of zero and then half of the00:12:19
population has a zero and so what does00:12:22
that mean if we're doing our averages00:12:24
and actually if you survive childhood00:12:26
and uh for women if you survive child00:12:28
birth so life expectancy is a little bit00:12:30
lower often times for women because00:12:32
child birth is extraordinarily dangerous00:12:34
then you can live into your 7s and00:12:37
that's no one's surprised by that at all00:12:39
whatsoever it's it's not remarkable um00:12:41
you know it's remarkable if someone00:12:42
lives into their 90s which also happens00:12:44
and everyone's like check him out 90y00:12:46
old you know like that's a big deal but00:12:48
there is an expectation about the cycles00:12:50
of life and that people will make it to00:12:51
their 70s but it becomes skewed by how00:12:54
extraordinarily High infant mortality is00:12:56
but again that's not as specific00:12:59
Hallmark of the medieval period in00:13:00
particular again you're going to find00:13:01
that among ancient Greeks you're going00:13:03
to find it among ancient Romans children00:13:06
especially small children until very00:13:08
recently were very fragile things and00:13:11
you know thank God for inoculations00:13:12
essentially it's made a huge difference00:13:15
one of the other things I think that the00:13:16
media and in the broadest sense of the00:13:18
word is quite responsible for is this00:13:20
idea that the medieval period is Muddy00:13:23
always muddy everybody wears leather00:13:26
which which you know is is an unus ual00:13:29
type of some people did wear leather but00:13:30
not the way they wear it in TV shows and00:13:33
everything was sort of subdued in color00:13:35
and one of the things that I've found in00:13:37
my studies is the absolute Obsession and00:13:40
love of color and bright color in a way00:13:42
that is completely unfamiliar to us00:13:44
today yeah we would think that medieval00:13:47
tastes are excessively gudy is what we00:13:50
would think they were just basically if00:13:52
they had a surface they were like I'm00:13:53
putting a mural here this is what I'm00:13:54
doing you know so it's interesting00:13:56
because a lot of this comes to us00:13:58
because because the edifices that we00:14:00
still have that are medial are often00:14:02
castles or Cathedrals and tastes have00:14:04
changed over time so what happened a lot00:14:07
of times is that all of these residences00:14:10
would be plastered on the inside so you00:14:11
build the stone walls and then you00:14:12
plaster them and then you take the00:14:14
plaster and you paint all over it and00:14:15
you paint it all kinds of different00:14:16
colors and you put some murals on it so00:14:18
we know for example from written records00:14:20
that I think that notrad used to be like00:14:22
bright yellow inside with all kinds of00:14:25
paintings all over and this would be00:14:27
very very common and sometimes can have00:14:28
records saying oh yeah it's painted like00:14:30
this because someone will have gone to00:14:32
the cathedral or the castle and they'll00:14:33
say this is how it looked but obviously00:14:36
uh plaster kind of sloughs off over time00:14:38
and tastes had changed too but also the00:14:41
way that our relationship to the past00:14:44
has changed so for example um it's the00:14:46
same the same is true of Roman statues00:14:49
we think of them as being these white00:14:50
marble things they were all00:14:51
extraordinarily brightly painted in this00:14:53
way that we would not appreciate and to00:14:56
the point where there was a specific00:14:57
Victorian in interest in both medieval00:15:00
and Roman things and victorians would go00:15:02
get a hold of a Roman statue and be like00:15:03
what's all this paint get this off of00:15:05
here and they would you know strip to00:15:07
make it what it looks like in their head00:15:09
and the same thing happens sort of with00:15:11
medieval buildings is if the plaster00:15:13
isn't in particularly good Nick then00:15:15
everyone will say get that off of here00:15:16
I'm trying to see you know the medieval00:15:17
Stone I want that you know the gothic00:15:19
experience but that's not the gothic00:15:21
experience any person who most people00:15:24
are doing their own kind of like weaving00:15:25
and D work and making their own cloth in00:15:27
their Cottages they growing their own00:15:29
pigments and they're like I've got a00:15:31
yellow dress you know like yellow is00:15:33
actually one of the pigments that is00:15:34
easiest for people to make and so a lot00:15:37
of clothes are blue a lot of clothes are00:15:38
yellow um most clothes are colorful I00:15:41
often Point people in the direction of00:15:44
uh you know our best place for things00:15:46
like this our 16th century painting so00:15:48
it's not necessarily medieval it it's00:15:50
more early modern but if you look at00:15:52
kind of like Feast scenes of peasants00:15:54
for example you know wedding scenes or00:15:56
or parties of any sort of kind you'll00:16:00
see all of the peasants they're they're00:16:01
dressed in red they're dressed in yellow00:16:02
they're dressed in blue there's not a00:16:04
single kind of brown dress in sight but00:16:06
the way we think about it is it's like a00:16:08
stone wall That's dripping water and00:16:11
then you know someone in filthy rags00:16:13
underneath it and it's just not how the00:16:14
world was you know no but it's a very00:16:17
pervasive image and I've done a few bits00:16:19
and pieces of as film extra and00:16:20
sometimes asked to bring my own clothing00:16:23
my own re clothing and I turn up and00:16:25
they're looking at it going uh they00:16:27
didn't have that bright blue they did00:16:29
this is actually W this is actually W00:16:32
yeah and we wouldn't have combined it00:16:33
yeah they would we actually have00:16:34
paintings so there are people there are00:16:36
soldiers in red and white hes basically00:16:39
men's stockings they're red and white00:16:41
and they're going to war with one leg00:16:43
red and one leg white in some cases00:16:45
they're split up into red and blue and00:16:47
you have to look at the slightly00:16:49
post-medieval but just the LNS and what00:16:51
they were doing with their absurd the00:16:53
Doppel soldiers they were paid twice as00:16:55
much and they spent their money on00:16:57
fashion and they were literally going to00:16:59
war with enormous brightly colored hats00:17:02
I love see I love this because um you'll00:17:05
see in the 14th century one of the00:17:07
reactions to the plague that some not00:17:10
all but some preachers have so uh Bishop00:17:13
Thomas Brinton Who's down in Rochester00:17:16
he says that the one of the reasons why00:17:18
everyone is suffering from the plague is00:17:20
because everyone is dressing too00:17:22
sexily and uh he's like guys are just00:17:25
walking around in these very brightly00:17:27
colored tip and their shoes are so00:17:29
pointy and you need to stop that because00:17:31
this is just too sexy why are your00:17:34
clothes so bright why are your shoes so00:17:36
pointy why are your ho so tight and it's00:17:39
this whole world where you know that is00:17:41
so common you know Rochester is a fairly00:17:43
good-sized town but it's you know it's00:17:45
not Paris or something but you know so00:17:48
it's it's you you have this at every00:17:50
level of society people love to dress up00:17:53
they love bright colors and they love00:17:54
fashion you know to the point that00:17:56
fashion was one of the first things that00:17:57
you know when when people start getting00:17:59
a little bit more money for fashion this00:18:00
is the sort of thing that Royals are00:18:01
like we got to crack down on this these00:18:02
people are getting too fancy you canot00:18:04
tell the difference between them and us00:18:06
and we they actually introduced laws00:18:08
didn't they sump00:18:09
laws and that was to try to keep people00:18:13
in their station because they now have00:18:15
too much money and you can't wear this00:18:17
because that's reserved for nobility and00:18:19
nobody be able to tell who's important00:18:20
and who's not if you can wear this Same00:18:22
Cloth as us exactly and it's one of00:18:24
those things where you can tell how much00:18:26
money people had for clothes and were00:18:27
willing to spend on close because you00:18:30
don't have a law like that if it's not00:18:31
available to people you know if you go00:18:33
back to the seventh century no one is00:18:35
like hey look you can't just go00:18:36
flouncing around in Furs all right you00:18:38
understand me by the time you hit the00:18:39
13th century 14th century that very well00:18:41
may be the case you know so again it's a00:18:44
really long period of time but00:18:46
especially in the late medieval period00:18:48
they just love to dress up and you know00:18:50
they're not so different from us we love00:18:51
to dress up now you know it's just also00:18:53
we don't dress as brightly we don't00:18:55
actually I think we would probably be00:18:57
shocked if we went back into some towns00:18:59
and cities and it's like this is so00:19:01
awfully gy and there's a there's a place00:19:03
in York can't remember the name it's one00:19:05
of the halls in York that they've00:19:06
repainted in the style Hall yeah and and00:19:09
if you if you go there the main living00:19:11
Hall has enormous vertical stripes of00:19:14
red and00:19:15
green and you know painted flowers in in00:19:19
various different places all sort of00:19:20
hand done so it's not perfect but you00:19:23
know these These are Stripes of bright00:19:25
red that's about a foot across and00:19:27
another stripe of green that's about a00:19:28
foot across and all the walls are00:19:30
covered in this stripe and I'm thinking00:19:32
this is way more gy than the most gudy00:19:35
wallpaper you could ever get in the00:19:36
1970s I mean it just blows it away for00:19:39
its shocking and I love that about them00:19:42
you know I love their complete over the00:19:45
topness and I think it's a real shame00:19:46
that it doesn't come up a lot of the00:19:48
time in so for example the medieval film00:19:51
that I uh and everyone else in the world00:19:53
is hanging out for at the moment uh ser00:19:55
and the Green Knight I guess it's called00:19:56
the Green Knight just coming out I'm I'm00:19:58
very excited I cannot wait to see uh my00:20:00
very good friend Dev Patel and look at00:20:02
him in a respectful manner but the thing00:20:05
that I I think that a lot of it is like00:20:07
really true to what the story is like00:20:09
and it's spooky and Atmospheric but then00:20:10
the only shame is again you've got like00:20:13
here's the stone wall here are the00:20:16
really muted colors and it's like I00:20:18
would just love once to see the bright00:20:21
stupid colors and you know is someone00:20:23
wearing a party colored pair of Hose I00:20:25
would love that I would love it I would00:20:27
just lose it I love to see somebody00:20:29
wearing paines really really pointed00:20:31
shoes that are I love them in a way it00:20:34
looks absurd I mean there's a TV show00:20:35
called Black Adder I don't whether00:20:37
you're familiar with love black and what00:20:39
Black Adder was wearing isn't actually00:20:41
absurd it is actually slightly00:20:44
understated from all the records we have00:20:46
he's because it's black you know yes so00:20:48
he was actually being subdued but his00:20:50
shoes his crazy hat you know his00:20:53
enormous shoulders they're all actually00:20:56
quite authentic in many ways MH yeah00:20:58
absolutely pudding bow haircut is00:21:00
literally cut with a pudding bowl is is00:21:02
what some of them had if the visual00:21:04
records we have of the time are are00:21:06
accurate and I see no reason to think00:21:07
they they wouldn't be yeah and I mean I00:21:09
think that a lot of the written records00:21:11
back it up because you know that's why00:21:12
you see complaints about it it's because00:21:14
people are are stating yes that's what's00:21:16
happening and the older generation is as00:21:18
they are today complaining against the00:21:21
younger generation is is ruining things00:21:23
or their Fashions are outrageous or00:21:25
their shoes are too pointed or whatever00:21:28
every time which is exactly the same as00:21:30
today and as you get older you think ah00:21:33
the trousers that young people are00:21:34
wearing sometimes are ridiculous you go00:21:36
uh I'm just saying what they've been00:21:38
saying since ancient times that's just a00:21:40
sign of age exactly that just means that00:21:42
you're getting on so like never admit00:21:44
it um getting on to Warfare as well and00:21:47
showing off a little bit um I was having00:21:49
a discussion with somebody about some00:21:51
particularly flash armor with gold on it00:21:54
and jewelry and everything and they they00:21:56
were saying well that would have just00:21:57
been for ceremonial purposes I mean no I00:22:00
don't think it would have been I think00:22:01
the whole point is to show your00:22:04
magnificence on the battlefield I would00:22:06
agree with that because um you know one00:22:08
one of the things that I would have to00:22:09
say about that is who's saying that the00:22:10
battlefield isn't a00:22:12
ceremony part of what you're kind of00:22:14
doing when you're out there especially00:22:16
if you are from the sort of echelon of00:22:18
society where you have access to a suit00:22:21
of armor like that um what I often like00:22:24
in medieval Warfare 2 especially for00:22:27
extraord00:22:28
you know well to- do people as I call it00:22:30
like rich guy tag right because you know00:22:32
the the purpose of War for someone who00:22:35
could have a suit of armor like that is00:22:37
not to necessarily get killed or kill00:22:39
anyone you want to go kidnap someone00:22:42
from the other team who has the same00:22:43
rank so you want to kidnap him you want00:22:45
to hold him Ransom and then you're going00:22:47
to get a lot of money out of this look00:22:50
at the number of times an actual King is00:22:52
captured on the battlefield how many00:22:54
times has the French King drag back to00:22:56
England you know this is even happening00:22:58
in the early modern period you know00:23:01
Charles I captures Francis and there's00:23:04
this ongoing Val hapsburg rivalry and he00:23:06
has him he's got him right there and you00:23:09
know basically Francis spends a bunch of00:23:10
time writing poor me letters to his mom00:23:13
and like that's what happens you know00:23:14
it's not Warfare in the way that we00:23:16
think of it where two people are like00:23:17
all right that's it we're going to kill00:23:19
each other that's never what's on so you00:23:22
know you go out there and you say yes00:23:24
here I am I am a golden god look at me00:23:26
and unfortunately that that get00:23:28
kidnapped but it protects you in two00:23:29
ways it says I'm wealthy therefore don't00:23:32
kill me because if you kill me I'm00:23:34
probably worth scrap value and that's00:23:36
not nearly as much as if you are going00:23:38
to Ransom me so yes we'll fight and my00:23:41
armor will probably prevent me unless00:23:42
I'm very unlucky from death and this is00:23:44
I think why guns are slow to be adopted00:23:48
because they're a little random they're00:23:50
very inaccurate and they will kill00:23:51
somebody regardless of their social00:23:53
status on the battlefield but the hour00:23:55
broadly speaking will protect you mostly00:23:58
not always from of course that kind of00:24:01
lethal combat whereas your poor ordinary00:24:03
Soldier is getting moaned down in waves00:24:06
and it it must have been a very00:24:07
different experience but there are00:24:09
battles where you know aenor for example00:24:11
all the captured French Knights the00:24:14
English needed to kill them but the00:24:16
knights the men at Arms refused to kill00:24:18
them they had to give it to the lower00:24:20
orders if you want to call it that way00:24:22
the archers to go and slit their throats00:24:24
and that caused absolute outrage at the00:24:26
time it was Way Beyond I mean it was it00:24:29
was a war crime what we would think of00:24:31
as a war crime back then you could00:24:33
justify it arguably and there will00:24:35
continue to be arguments about it but00:24:37
it's really interesting these moments00:24:39
where it's the exceptions that almost00:24:41
prove the rule and it must be the same00:24:43
for you when you're looking into some of00:24:45
these things about the apocalypse and00:24:48
and and what people are complaining00:24:49
about because as you said there wouldn't00:24:51
be rules unless people were breaking00:24:53
them they wouldn't need to put the rules00:24:54
in place completely so the Apocalypse00:24:57
this is something I'm relatively00:24:59
unfamiliar with when it comes to the00:25:01
medieval period And I obviously know the00:25:03
Book of Revelations and the whole00:25:04
biblical side of things a little bit but00:25:07
tell me a bit about that and how that00:25:08
affected the way people saw the world00:25:11
and presumably it ties into plagues as00:25:12
well oh rather so but you would be00:25:15
surprised how often the apocalypse comes00:25:17
up and I suppose you know I've already00:25:19
made a generalized reference to this but00:25:21
you know for you know what we would call00:25:23
Europeans in the medieval period you00:25:25
know they're they're Christians and00:25:26
that's that's the thing about them is00:25:28
that they live in Christendom and one00:25:31
thing that we really tend to forget now00:25:33
is that Christianity is a linear00:25:34
religion it positing that there is a00:25:36
beginning middle and end to the universe00:25:39
there was the beginning when God made00:25:41
Everything Jesus came right in the00:25:43
middle and then we are now in the end00:25:45
bit and we're waiting for Jesus to come00:25:47
back and for the apocalypse to start00:25:49
there are all sorts of things that are00:25:51
going to prage the second coming of00:25:53
Jesus you know it might be the arrival00:25:55
of antichrist who is in almost entirely00:25:58
like extra biblical character that00:26:00
people just kind of made up it's kind of00:26:02
fanfiction but it's definitely taken on00:26:04
a life of its own and then there's the00:26:06
things that are in you know the00:26:08
apocalypse but the thing is for medieval00:26:10
people who are living breathing all the00:26:13
time you know Christianity they don't00:26:16
see this as you know a story that is00:26:19
kind of explicative of their world they00:26:21
see this as absolutely the truth and for00:26:23
them you know when Jesus says oh I I00:26:26
will be right back you won't the the00:26:28
hour of my coming is something that he00:26:29
refers to multiple times in the gospels00:26:32
and so they're like ready for that to00:26:33
happen right so within that context00:26:36
they're constantly interpreting the00:26:37
signs of the world around them to say00:26:40
okay well now now is when it's happening00:26:42
so it's interesting the times that it00:26:44
comes up so there is a huge tension00:26:46
around the year 1000 for example so00:26:49
they're like ah well in the in the year00:26:51
999 everyone's having a freak out00:26:53
they're like well this is surely Jesus00:26:55
is going to come back in the year 100000:26:58
because it's a nice round number00:27:00
essentially they really do like U00:27:03
numbers to have a kind of a specific00:27:05
meaning they think about math as a kind00:27:08
of um Divine explication of the world00:27:11
right so if you can kind of figure out00:27:12
math you're kind of thinking like God Is00:27:14
So for them the year of 1 thousand00:27:16
that's a really obvious point and people00:27:17
will point out to things like oh do you00:27:19
see these Vikings they're everywhere and00:27:21
it's oh there these big Pagan hordes00:27:24
that refers to the hordes of Gog and MOG00:27:27
who are basically in a lot of the00:27:29
Antichrist Theory and so that's who that00:27:31
is these bad Pagan hordes and so oh00:27:33
clearly God's going to come back and00:27:34
Jesus is going to come back it's going00:27:35
to be the end of the world that doesn't00:27:37
happen then you know anytime there is a00:27:39
famine that is something that comes up a00:27:41
lot so the 14th century is absolutely00:27:43
lousy with apocalyptic thinking because00:27:46
in the first place you have the Great00:27:47
Famine I think it's from 1315 to 1317 if00:27:51
I've got my dates right there absolutely00:27:53
terrible it's very very cold it's very00:27:55
very wet two years worth of crops fa and00:27:57
everybody starving there you go you got00:27:59
your famine so that's one of the horses00:28:01
of the Apocalypse right and then oh who00:28:03
comes along a couple of decades later00:28:05
it's pestilence the black death and you00:28:08
can be forgiven for thinking if say you00:28:11
live in Florence and 60% of the00:28:13
population has died of the plague you00:28:16
could be forgiven for thinking it might00:28:17
be the end of the world absolutely I00:28:19
mean in a way we were living through00:28:21
that in the coid pandemic I can00:28:24
understand a little bit more about what00:28:26
it feels like perhaps and that's a00:28:29
disease that is killing a minuscule00:28:31
fraction compared to the black death and00:28:33
we have ways of treating it and not for00:28:35
everybody know it and we know what it is00:28:37
we understand it you know we know what00:28:39
transmission is all about but if 30 to00:28:41
60% of your colleagues stopped turning00:28:45
up for work because they've just died of00:28:47
this disease I don't think any of us00:28:49
would not consider it was the end of the00:28:51
world actually I mean and in many ways00:28:53
you know even you know under Co which is00:28:55
again it's a fairly benign Pand pic as00:28:57
pandemics go that's not to say that I00:28:59
don't think you know everybody get00:29:01
vaccinated wash your hands be careful00:29:03
you know like that's not to say that I00:29:04
don't believe that but one of the things00:29:06
that we can say is that our world has00:29:08
probably irrevocably shifted as a result00:29:10
of this you know um our ways of working00:29:11
have changed probably forever you know00:29:14
there are these certain things that have00:29:15
really shifted as a result of that and00:29:17
with a much more benign pandemic how00:29:19
much more would that be the case when00:29:21
we're talking about the black death00:29:23
which is by all accounts the worst00:29:25
epidemic that the world has ever seen00:29:27
and00:29:28
dated societal change as well didn't it00:29:29
because I believe that peasants agrarian00:29:32
workers suddenly realized actually next00:29:35
door needs workers and they're offering00:29:36
to pay us T Pence a day instead of one00:29:38
pence a day yeah it's really interesting00:29:41
because I'm always this is one of my00:29:42
favorite things that happens but at the00:29:44
same time I always say we have to be00:29:45
really careful about it because you will00:29:47
see kind of in the first place peasants00:29:49
start to say hang on a minute I could00:29:51
maybe move and then there becomes like a00:29:53
big Crackdown because they're like oh no00:29:54
The Peasants are realizing they could00:29:55
move you know so um so at first you will00:29:58
say people going all right well that's00:30:00
it who's going to stop me I'm moving00:30:01
down the road and I'm going to go get00:30:03
higher wages and then at times people00:30:05
are like no legally we will stop you so00:30:07
there are multiple laws that are00:30:09
promulgated specifically in England to00:30:10
be like you cannot ask for more money00:30:12
that is it there is a line then you get00:30:14
the peasants Rebellion much more00:30:16
successful than you know a lot of other00:30:18
peasants rebellions had been but it is00:30:20
essentially quashed but then we do see00:30:22
Wes they go up a little bit because00:30:24
everyone's like Remember When The00:30:25
Peasants murdered everybody okay we00:30:27
maybe want to keep them happy but then00:30:29
they stagnate again for like another 15000:30:31
years so it's this really interesting00:30:33
push and pull because although I love00:30:35
the peasants rebellions I love peasants00:30:37
generally I'm a big champion of ordinary00:30:39
people in history because I think that00:30:41
everybody is the most interesting people00:30:43
but what I think we can really learn00:30:45
from this is what they definitely do is00:30:47
shift the way that people think so again00:30:50
you start seeing laws saying you can't00:30:52
pay peasants anymore because someone's00:30:54
getting paid more right again you would00:30:57
would have a law about it if it wasn't00:30:58
happening because you simply didn't need00:31:00
to before the 14th century you had there00:31:02
were plenty of peasants no one needed to00:31:04
worry about that suddenly you're out of00:31:05
peasants they start realizing their00:31:07
worth and the shift that it causes also00:31:10
means that peasant rebellions never kind00:31:12
of stop after the 14th century there is00:31:15
in kind of like recorded memory up until00:31:19
the 14th century you only have handful00:31:21
of peasants rebellions they're very very00:31:23
few and then after the 14th century they00:31:25
just start happening over and over and00:31:28
over again and we see as many in about a00:31:30
hundred years as we have written down00:31:32
for like the previous thousand so00:31:35
something really shifts in terms of00:31:37
public Consciousness after the Black00:31:39
Death so even if they aren't necessarily00:31:41
what we would call successful even if we00:31:43
don't say that you know yeah everyone00:31:46
standard of living Rises and continues00:31:48
to rise what we do see is people saying00:31:51
well you know what actually I'm not00:31:52
going to take that this is the way that00:31:54
the world is and there's nothing that I00:31:56
can do about it for granted I'm going to00:31:57
go out and test if this is still the00:32:00
case and that is something that we can00:32:02
definitely definitely see shifts00:32:04
completely you know until you get stuff00:32:05
like the French Revolution a few hundred00:32:07
years later yeah how did the church00:32:09
react to people getting what how they00:32:11
would say it uppy did they say but your00:32:14
place is given by God and therefore00:32:16
you're somehow rebelling against God by00:32:19
wanting to be something other than a00:32:21
agrarian worker this is a really00:32:23
interesting one because you know the00:32:24
church for the most part especially at00:32:26
the echelons is just drawn from rich00:32:29
people no one who became the pope or no00:32:31
one who becomes a bishop was born a poor00:32:34
boy on a farm that's just simply not the00:32:36
way the world Works often times that's00:32:38
somewhere where extraordinarily Rich00:32:39
families kind of send their extra Sons00:32:41
especially after primogeniture so you00:32:43
just kind of like Shuffle some along to00:32:45
the church they can be a bishop they'll00:32:46
have a great life that's not necessarily00:32:48
true of Parish priests or something like00:32:49
that but so they do tend to Echo00:32:52
sentiments about the idea that the rich00:32:55
are in charge of society for a reason00:32:57
what the church tends to say is not00:32:59
necessarily oh well this is your status00:33:01
in life get used to it you pleb it's not00:33:04
so much like that but what they tend to00:33:06
say is well you know none of this really00:33:09
matters your next life is what matters00:33:12
but there will be all kinds of00:33:13
interesting ways of interpreting that so00:33:15
for example I was reading yesterday a00:33:17
sermon by Humbert of Romans who is a00:33:21
telling other priests how to speak to00:33:22
people with Leprosy he says you know00:33:24
people with Leprosy they're mad all the00:33:26
time because they have leprosy and00:33:28
they're so upset with God and you know00:33:30
they might turn to sin instead of what00:33:32
they should really be doing which is00:33:33
being really prayerful and focusing on00:33:36
the fact that oh well in the next life00:33:39
which is the longer one and the real one00:33:41
you know they'll be fine as long as they00:33:43
get their soul together so they should00:33:44
focus on that and then he Compares them00:33:47
to job from the Bible who suffers a lot00:33:50
and he's like well you know didn't job00:33:52
suffer much worse than you as someone00:33:54
with Leprosy because job was really rich00:33:57
and then he lost everything he had so00:34:00
that's worse than if you're poor and you00:34:03
lose everything that's not as bad as if00:34:05
you're rich and you lose everything and00:34:07
if you have leprosy and you get sick00:34:10
that's not as bad as like you know00:34:12
something bad happening to a rich well-b00:34:15
modied person and he literally just puts00:34:16
it down there and I was reading it like00:34:18
Humbert what are you talking about you00:34:21
know you're just saying that like in00:34:22
theory just so you know um some rich guy00:34:24
who lived 100 years ago had it worse00:34:26
than you because he was rich so have you00:34:28
considered that so there is that kind of00:34:30
way of thinking but what the church00:34:32
really tries to get everybody to do is00:34:34
focus on the next life but part of the00:34:36
reason that they do that is because00:34:37
they're drawn from these very high00:34:39
echelons of society and they have a00:34:43
stake in the matter it's not quite as00:34:45
much as you see from for example royalty00:34:48
themselves who are very much like yes00:34:50
yes I am anointed by God oh and by the00:34:52
way I am descended from a mythological00:34:54
figure so I've got that going for me uh00:34:57
and I'm simply different from you people00:34:59
you know so the very very well-to-do00:35:01
secular people will really lean on that00:35:04
God has anointed me whereas the church00:35:07
never wants to give them too much of00:35:08
that either because the church also00:35:09
might want to come in at any time and00:35:11
make you not the Emperor or make you no00:35:13
longer the king you know the church00:35:15
reserves the right to excommunicate you00:35:16
and get someone else in they're a little00:35:18
much more reticent about that their00:35:20
focuses the next life but I wondered00:35:23
whether one could chart a sort of00:35:25
philosophy of thinking of the sort of00:35:27
the peasants Revolt the Black Death00:35:29
people starting to realize their worth00:35:31
all the way through to the the Schism in00:35:34
Christianity where you do start to have00:35:36
Parish priests who don't think things00:35:38
are anointed you know it's clear that00:35:40
stuff is a bit random and it eventually00:35:43
after several hundred years of thought00:35:45
and and sort of shuffling of social00:35:47
conscience we get to the stage of the of00:35:50
the rejection of the sort of Catholic00:35:51
church and the rise of the Protestant00:35:53
Church oh I mean this is my bread and00:35:56
butter you know this is a very this is00:35:58
very exciting to me because again this00:36:00
is one of the apocalyptic signs that00:36:02
people point to the great schism and you00:36:04
know having your pope and your anti-pop00:36:06
in Roman avenon I think the highest00:36:08
number of popes you ever get is three00:36:10
they tried to get at a point in time00:36:12
they were like all right look we're just00:36:13
going to cancel out the Pope in Rome and00:36:14
the Pope in Avon and we're just going to00:36:16
elect this new pope and then he's going00:36:17
to be the pope but then obviously the00:36:19
Roman and aanon popes were like no we're00:36:21
not going to do that so then you had a00:36:22
third Pope in Pisa for a little while00:36:25
and eventually it all dies out but yes00:36:26
you certainly do see this and so um one00:36:29
of my great loves and uh one of the00:36:31
groups that I'm really interested in00:36:33
studying the hites they really kind of00:36:35
move on from this and you know so in the00:36:37
first place they are really a kind of00:36:39
post-plague sort of grouping because00:36:42
certainly there are nobles involved in00:36:44
the movement there are certainly church00:36:46
people you know yanus obviously was a00:36:48
was a priest himself before he comes up00:36:50
with this this new uh form of00:36:51
Christianity uh and then gets burnt to00:36:53
the stake for his trouble as one does00:36:56
but it's also this really kind of like00:36:58
social conglomeration so you have lots00:37:00
of peasants who are involved you have00:37:02
lots of towns people some forms of hites00:37:05
so for example uh the taborites who are00:37:08
focused on the Bohemian town of Tabor00:37:10
they kind of try to start a form of00:37:12
Communism along with their hustis so00:37:16
what they're saying is they have take a00:37:18
very kind of um an interpretation of00:37:20
Christianity is that Society should be00:37:22
equal and there's enough stuff for00:37:24
everybody this idea of a hierarch that's00:37:27
promulgated by the Catholic church in00:37:28
and of itself is problematic because00:37:31
it's saying that humans need to be00:37:33
stried out in this particular way00:37:34
whereas they could be in one moment so I00:37:38
would say00:37:39
absolutely these things are connected um00:37:41
and you know there's all kinds of hites00:37:43
who write about this SOI writes this00:37:45
sort of a thing people tend to ignore00:37:46
the hites because nobody wants to learn00:37:47
Czech but if an entire Kingdom that is00:37:51
like intrical to the it's the richest00:37:53
Kingdom in the Holy Roman Empire in the00:37:55
15th century when all this goes down as00:37:57
well because it's got multiple Silver00:37:58
Mines it's one of the most important00:38:00
Kingdoms in Christendom and they're like00:38:02
no we're off you know and I think00:38:04
there's something like um five Crusades00:38:06
are called against them and the church00:38:08
loses them all this is this is the thing00:38:10
that people don't realize there were00:38:11
quite a lot of Crusades within what we00:38:13
think of geographical Europe I mean00:38:15
there were there was the alenzi and00:38:17
Crusade as well which is largely about00:38:19
money and land and then The Hite one00:38:22
which has perhaps got a bit more about00:38:24
philosophy and Church in it but Al the00:38:27
hites they they innovated a lot of00:38:29
battle strategies as well didn't they so00:38:31
that's fascinating it's almost the00:38:33
beginnings well presumably is considered00:38:35
the beginnings of protestantism in some00:38:37
ways but also possibly the Protestant00:38:39
work ethic which is perhaps separate00:38:41
from the religious side which is we can00:38:43
fix things and make things and invent00:38:45
new things uh and they had War wagons00:38:48
didn't they they literally had Cannon00:38:51
and guns inside wagons drawn by horses00:38:53
and they would make them into lines and00:38:56
C CES and it was much more of a ordinary00:38:59
Soldier kind of medieval really not00:39:02
medieval anymore no yeah well this is00:39:04
the thing it's it's quite interesting00:39:06
because there's lot to be said for you00:39:08
know and arguments can be had for years00:39:09
and years and years about the conception00:39:11
of the military revolution in the early00:39:13
modern period but you begin to see00:39:14
things like the venberg technique you00:39:16
know our good friend Yan jishka he comes00:39:18
up with this and there is a lot of hand00:39:21
ringing again from the sort of people00:39:22
who are wearing fancy gold armor about00:39:24
this where they're like who are these00:39:26
guys will not come out from behind these00:39:28
wagons and then you know the hites are00:39:30
like yeah now you're all dead you know00:39:32
and so we have a lot of written records00:39:34
to indicate that women are fighting as00:39:36
hdes and a lot of the times um also are00:39:39
a little bit more violent about things00:39:42
like there will be specific records00:39:43
where women are like no we're killing00:39:45
all of these people and the guys are00:39:46
like ladies ladies slow down and they're00:39:48
like no we're going to kill them you see00:39:50
all of these things that are very00:39:53
unusual in terms of the way medieval00:39:55
warfare works00:39:57
within that system and so as someone who00:39:59
kind of is a is a check specialist for00:40:01
me that's kind of like the line between00:40:03
medieval and early modern is I'm like00:40:04
well how many hites do you have on the00:40:06
ground because for me the minute the00:40:07
hites have like one I'm like boom okay00:40:10
that's it the medieval period is over00:40:11
and we're early modern now that's not00:40:13
how everybody sees things but it just00:40:14
depends on what do you work on you know00:40:16
like what is your area I know people who00:40:19
are specialize in the Iberian Peninsula00:40:21
and they'll say oh well the early modern00:40:23
period is over when the Reconquista is00:40:25
complete and all of the Muslims are kic00:40:28
well they're not all kicked out there is00:40:29
the small Mattern of the uh Inquisition00:40:32
to happen in the early modern period is00:40:34
a result but when Ferdinand and Isabella00:40:36
take over everything they go well that's00:40:38
it you know here we are in the 1490s and00:40:40
it's the early modern period now00:40:42
obviously that can be really different00:40:43
here in England because a lot of people00:40:45
are like I don't know the tutors you00:40:47
know so it just place to place it can00:40:48
all be really different but one of the00:40:51
things that I think makes that true for00:40:54
um the Czech lands is the ways that ites00:40:56
are fighting it's just totally different00:40:58
and it's perhaps the philosophy behind00:41:00
the fighting as well that that people00:41:01
are genuinely fighting to defend their00:41:04
land defend their way of life and and00:41:06
actually kill the others and when you00:41:08
refer to it at the beginning the there00:41:09
was a sort of medieval concept of00:41:11
battles as display you went in there to00:41:13
show how brilliant you were you had your00:41:15
bright armor you had your fantastic00:41:17
warhorse banners everywhere and you were00:41:19
sort of looking magnificent well also00:41:21
killing as well but killing wasn't the00:41:23
main thing there were obviously T and00:41:26
for example the massive number of00:41:28
Slaughters but often you get the feeling00:41:30
that a lot of medieval battles were00:41:32
quite performative they were quite about00:41:35
display and the hites come along and say00:41:37
no no we're going to stay here behind00:41:39
our wooden walls and we're going to00:41:40
shoot the crap out of you and you're00:41:42
going to be dead and nobody's going to00:41:44
worry about you anymore and it's almost00:41:47
nobody ever woke up I mean I often say00:41:49
this people say when when is the00:41:50
medieval period it's like well it00:41:52
depends it it Fizzles nobody ever00:41:55
literally ever woke woke up and went oh00:41:57
I'm not medieval anymore I'm cheor I00:41:58
better change with my shoes you know it00:42:00
was like know it's not how it happened00:42:02
and it's the same thing you know with00:42:04
you know the end of the Roman period you00:42:05
couldn't go up to someone who lived in00:42:07
quote unquote Rome in 476 and say oh00:42:09
what's it like to be medieval now now00:42:11
that the Roman Empire is Fallen they00:42:12
would have been like what are you00:42:13
talking about yes they don't care about00:42:14
that it's this these are things that00:42:16
historians do to history you know00:42:18
periodization is something that we do to00:42:20
it to make things a little bit easier00:42:22
and so you know for me the term medieval00:42:24
is useful because what I'm kind of00:42:26
signaling to people is you know I kind00:42:28
of mean between then and then but it's a00:42:31
how long is a piece of string sort of00:42:33
thing because these same terms can00:42:35
really apply to a different period in00:42:38
different places and we're never exactly00:42:42
spot on about what that means and I00:42:43
think that that's really the work of00:42:45
historians a lot of the time is just you00:42:46
know constantly redefining what we mean00:42:48
constantly saying okay well given this00:42:51
then this might be true we could use00:42:53
this word you know half of it is just00:42:55
sitting around and argu about a word you00:42:57
know yeah I did always wonder whether00:42:59
sort of there's a transitional period of00:43:01
three generations I.E you have children00:43:03
who remember you and remember growing up00:43:05
with you in a certain way and then they00:43:07
have children and they remember you00:43:09
telling them about stories of your00:43:11
grandparents and then by the time you00:43:14
you're the fourth generation your00:43:16
great-grandparents are so far in the00:43:18
past that it's not really relevant00:43:20
anymore and I wonder whether one could00:43:21
ever look at things like that as just00:43:23
like to go from Roman to Medieval00:43:26
would have to be at least three00:43:28
generations before anybody went actually00:43:31
I am slightly different than my00:43:32
great-grandparents you know when they00:43:34
self realize it but you can also look at00:43:36
technology as well can't you so for00:43:38
example I'm fascinated by the slow00:43:41
adoption of black powder guns they00:43:44
appear as handguns in sort of 1380s is00:43:48
but don't really form a decisive00:43:50
component of warfare for another 10000:43:53
years 150 years possibly 200 years00:43:56
why were they expensive unreliable no00:43:58
well we know they were noisy and00:44:00
unreliable so yeah there's something I00:44:02
think because they were quite expensive00:44:04
and unreliable I think that they again00:44:06
kind of get into the sort of the00:44:08
medieval way of thinking about Warfare00:44:10
so you know one of the things that00:44:11
you're doing in terms of display is also00:44:13
showing your progress right on the00:44:14
battlefield so if you're a king and you00:44:16
get into it with another king and you00:44:17
best him and everyone is like oh wow he00:44:19
has got Pike skills you know or00:44:21
something like that then this is00:44:23
something that very much like adds to00:44:24
your farm your reputation00:44:26
a Gun there's no like skill as of yet00:44:30
right because they're just not accurate00:44:32
enough so it's not one of those things00:44:34
yet obviously it does become a thing00:44:36
where being a marksman with a gun is00:44:38
considered a skill but because you can't00:44:40
be a marksman with a gun at this point00:44:41
in time it's almost like well there's00:44:43
nothing you can brag about there's00:44:45
nothing there that you can say okay well00:44:46
I am a really expert military tactician00:44:49
and you can see this and we do see you00:44:51
know obviously Canon become much more00:44:53
popular before individual guns do and00:44:56
that's because well you don't need to be00:44:58
that accurate do you just shoot at that00:45:00
big lump of men there exactly and so I00:45:03
think that it is the kind of one-on00:45:04
Oneness that it's the more personal00:45:07
nature of a gun combined with the fact00:45:10
that there's no way to show off about it00:45:12
do that makes sense yeah literally no00:45:14
Bragging right somebody's Dead with a00:45:15
hole in them from a piece of lead and00:45:17
nobody really knows who did it and it's00:45:20
sort of all over and there's nothing to00:45:21
write a saga about you know you can't00:45:23
imagine the Vikings writing about you00:45:25
know Olaf was you know exactly Vikings00:45:29
want to write a saga about a three-day00:45:31
punch-up with a half dead man that's00:45:33
what they want you know and there's no00:45:37
glory Olaf stood there in his medieval00:45:39
armor and then somebody shot him and he00:45:40
fell down dead that's not who shot him00:45:43
we don't know were they aiming directly00:45:45
at him no they were aiming for snor oh00:45:47
it's the opposite of heroic in a way00:45:49
isn't it it is it is yeah I was going to00:45:51
say because you wanted to talk about00:45:53
jousting a little bit and jousting00:45:55
obviously was a display of uh wealth and00:45:59
skill that was done quite a long way00:46:01
post medieval the the Tudors were00:46:03
jousting and and in Elizabeth's time00:46:05
they were jousting as well so it kept00:46:07
going for quite a long time and it00:46:08
appears to have been very popular yes so00:46:11
we kind of see it begin to take off like00:46:13
tournaments in general start kind of00:46:15
taking off again in the late medieval00:46:17
period which so the 14th century this is00:46:20
a big thing so if say you want to get on00:46:23
the good side of the people one of the00:46:25
ways that you can do that is by holding00:46:28
a tournament so for example when00:46:30
Princess n of bohemia comes over to uh00:46:33
Mary Edward and become the queen here00:46:35
everyone in England is really they're00:46:37
not particularly pleased about this00:46:38
because basically princess an being00:46:40
Bohemian and an empress bless them the00:46:43
Cs didn't even know where England was00:46:45
they were like who who's that yes what's00:46:47
an English basically Duke that had to go00:46:50
check out that England was a real place00:46:51
and they're like do they speak any00:46:53
languages oh God no they've got French00:46:55
and then there's this this other I think00:46:57
they say it's English I don't know and00:46:58
everyone was like well you shouldn't be00:47:00
sending an empress over there that00:47:01
doesn't seem right but they were trying00:47:03
to make some inroads like in order to00:47:05
flex on the French and so it happens the00:47:07
downside of this is that for English00:47:09
people is because Bohemia is so much00:47:11
more important um princess an doesn't00:47:13
have a dowy because she's married00:47:15
massively down the English are Furious00:47:18
about this but it ends up being a famous00:47:21
love match interestingly and one of the00:47:23
things that an does in order to win00:47:25
everybody over is she holds a massive00:47:28
tournament for a couple of weeks she's00:47:29
like look okay I see that you're all mad00:47:31
I'm paying for a tournament and everyone00:47:33
just loses their minds and it's very00:47:35
distracting for them and they love this00:47:38
so it's just kind of like you know00:47:40
everybody sort of gets the day off work00:47:42
Market vendors not withstanding they00:47:44
make some very good money because00:47:45
everybody wants to eat you know while00:47:46
they're they're seeing the tournament00:47:48
everybody gets drunk they have a bit of00:47:50
a make out with a stranger and they have00:47:52
a great time there are some rich people00:47:54
who are in armor that's great you know00:47:56
that's kind of the main entertainment00:47:57
but it's sort of everything that's00:47:59
around it as well and again we see a lot00:48:02
of sort of hand ringing on the part of00:48:04
the church about uh tournaments they00:48:07
will say things like well there is a00:48:09
possibility that you could die in a00:48:10
tournament and you're doing it for no00:48:12
reason right you're just doing it to be00:48:14
a showoff if you're a KN so this is kind00:48:16
of tantam out to Suicide as far as the00:48:19
the church is concerned so for them if00:48:22
you die they say well you'll go to00:48:24
you'll go to purgatory and you'll need00:48:26
to earn your way out if you die in a00:48:27
tournament because you are recklessly00:48:30
gambling with your life for what so that00:48:32
everyone can have a good time but the00:48:34
rich people are like yes we absolutely00:48:36
are and everybody loves that it's00:48:38
actually one of the only ways that00:48:40
royalty and nobility have to make00:48:42
inroads with the common population it's00:48:44
spread in circuses right only instead of00:48:46
circuses it's tournaments but it is a00:48:49
specific late medieval thing it's kind00:48:50
of like late 13th century to the 14th00:48:52
century this isn't something that's00:48:53
going to come up in the 9th century Tre00:48:56
for example it's just there's no no real00:48:58
idea of things in the same way I always00:49:00
wondered whether the quotes ordinary00:49:02
people actually quite liked watching the00:49:04
possibility of the the nobility killing00:49:07
each other I00:49:09
bet I I imagine imagine the guy who00:49:11
won't let you move down the road or the00:49:14
the guy you have to pay a fee to in00:49:15
order to get married to the person that00:49:17
you want you know like it gets knocked00:49:20
off his horse you're like yeah have at00:49:21
it you know it's that's great everybody00:49:24
would have been drunk everybody would00:49:25
been God knows what would have been00:49:27
going on but it was like the the most00:49:28
massive open air air festival for days00:49:32
everybody's letting off steam the rich00:49:34
people are potentially going to kill00:49:35
each other which is even more exciting00:49:38
displays of wealth and chaos is going on00:49:40
it must have just been think of the most00:49:42
impressive Music Festival you've ever00:49:45
been to and add add some Combat Sports00:49:48
add add it multiple days I mean it's00:49:50
like glastenbury but much much tougher00:49:53
and much more unusual you know people00:49:56
get hyped now for jousting you know even00:49:59
and obviously there it's part of it is00:50:01
all the00:50:02
anacronismo well of course I I do it so00:50:05
you know actually being in armor and00:50:08
jousting and by jousting for real I mean00:50:11
real solid wooden Lan with do you have00:50:13
like an oak Lance and everything I was00:50:15
going to ask you I've never jousted with00:50:16
Oak it's always been Pine it's always00:50:18
been Pine that we use and it usually00:50:22
shatters uh I was going to say safer00:50:24
yeah yeah but but again we don't really00:50:27
know what they use we certainly wouldn't00:50:28
use ash because I think I came across00:50:31
some reference to Ash if you want to00:50:33
kill a man because it's springy and the00:50:36
thing with Jousting is if the if the00:50:38
Lance shatters on your opponent all the00:50:41
energy is released in the Lance00:50:42
shattering so it's not so much of a big00:50:45
it's a big hit but it's very survivable00:50:47
if your armor is good if the Lance00:50:49
doesn't break it bends and then it comes00:50:52
back out into you as well so the biggest00:50:55
accident I've ever had when the lances00:50:57
haven't shattered right because the00:51:00
Energy's got to go somewhere it goes00:51:01
back into extending the Lance so and00:51:04
that means you two of you are passing00:51:06
each other and it gets hooked up under00:51:08
your arm under your chin and then you00:51:10
can't see cuz you don't know what's00:51:11
going on and so physics takes over and00:51:14
physics becomes chaotic um and you00:51:16
haven't got a clue until you potentially00:51:18
hit the ground or the other guy hits the00:51:19
ground or you get to the end somebody00:51:21
said what's it like to to Jou I said00:51:23
well you can see the opponent you can00:51:25
see the opponent you accelerate and then00:51:27
you see sky sky and then you can see the00:51:30
end the end of the lists because if00:51:32
you're hit or you hit you tilt backwards00:51:35
slightly you don't tilt backwards before00:51:37
you hit because you're concentrating00:51:39
you're leaning forward and you're00:51:40
focused on where the Lance is going as00:51:43
soon as this impact either from you on00:51:45
them or both or them on you you're00:51:47
tilted back slightly and you can only00:51:49
see Sky wow so the the worst views of00:51:53
anybody in the joust the two jousters I00:51:55
have a question yes about justing00:51:58
equipment for this Are there specific00:51:59
Saddles then that are used for justing00:52:01
like would you have something that's got00:52:02
you know a higher back as a result that00:52:04
yes yes you do I mean the medieval war s00:52:07
it changes during the development of00:52:09
jousting there are types of jousting in00:52:11
uh Germany for example where they00:52:13
deliberately don't have backs on the00:52:15
Saddles oo and and the idea there and00:52:18
they don't really seem to have much in00:52:19
the way of leg armor and they have very00:52:21
thick lances and we think nobody as far00:52:24
as I'm aware reenacted that we think the00:52:26
idea there is to smash the other person00:52:28
backwards off the horse cuz that makes00:52:30
much more sense if you've got a highback00:52:32
what's effectively a sort of 15th00:52:34
century 14th century War saddle it goes00:52:36
around your hips a little bit so low00:52:38
down around your but keeps you in the00:52:40
saddle but you can Flex backwards so00:52:43
you're you bend from the waist backwards00:52:45
and you can actually go all the way down00:52:48
to the horse's rump and then sit back up00:52:50
again because of the design of the00:52:51
saddle so you can actually be held in00:52:54
the dangers are when you're lifted up00:52:56
and twisted right okay yeah so the times00:52:58
I've knocked people off the saddle the00:53:01
Lance seems to have gone in and lifted00:53:03
them slightly and they've hit me and00:53:06
lifted themselves slightly and depending00:53:08
on where the horses are cuz if the two00:53:10
horses are going together but if one00:53:12
horse is going at a different R which is00:53:15
impossible to anticipate if you get it00:53:17
right SL wrong depending on your00:53:19
perspective you actually lift them out00:53:22
of the saddle and twist them over back00:53:24
so you typically fall you rotate through00:53:28
you know 90° and fall off the other side00:53:32
of the horse sort of off the you don't00:53:33
go backwards like they do in Hollywood00:53:35
you don't you don't fall backwards over00:53:37
the saddle you sort of twist and fall00:53:39
out the back over your right shoulder so00:53:43
that's scary it's very scary the only00:53:45
other accident I've seen in jousting uh00:53:48
and we've SE this in illustrations is00:53:50
when the hit is so big that both horses00:53:53
stop oh yes I've definitely seen00:53:55
illustrations of that yet where where00:53:57
they're like whoa all the energy00:53:59
dissipated in the Lance impact and00:54:00
everybody's suddenly gone from a fast00:54:02
caner to stationer and everybody's very00:54:06
surprised and one guy one guy I saw00:54:09
doing it was so surprised that he lent00:54:11
forwards and fell down on the on the00:54:14
left hand side of the front left hand00:54:16
shoulder of his horse because his his00:54:18
helmet was so heavy he wondered what had00:54:20
happened he lent down and he kept00:54:22
falling and he fell down on the left00:54:24
hand side00:54:25
which I've seen in an illustration I00:54:27
can't I can't find it recently but I've00:54:29
definitely seen somebody falling00:54:30
forwards on that side and I was very00:54:33
curious as to how that would happen but00:54:36
the physics it seems to occasionally00:54:38
happen which is really interesting see00:54:41
this is the thing right I am someone who00:54:44
just like sits around doing medieval00:54:45
history all day and I am absolutely00:54:48
fascinated by this like if for me if I00:54:51
Came Upon if someone said oh by the way00:54:53
there's going to be like a days long00:54:54
jousting match I'd be like well I guess00:54:55
I'm dropping everything this is what's00:54:58
happening for me you know and I would be00:54:59
the person who would in theory be kind00:55:01
of like most Blas about this you know00:55:04
this is this is so cool this is so much00:55:06
fun you know even if people are not00:55:08
necessarily going to get hurt which they00:55:11
can right obviously as you've made very00:55:14
very clear you know the worst it's going00:55:15
to be is like watching WrestleMania or00:55:17
something like that which is quite fun00:55:20
so you can see where the appeal lies00:55:23
because what's going to happen you00:55:25
literally don't know it doesn't matter00:55:26
how incredibly skillful people are there00:55:28
can be what's the Cadence of the horse00:55:30
how there are all these varying factors00:55:32
that play into it so it's so surprising00:55:34
and interesting and let's remember this00:55:36
is a world where you don't even have00:55:37
television yet so this might be like one00:55:39
of the most exciting things that ever00:55:40
happens to in your life and you know00:55:43
that's why I'm interested in them I love00:55:45
you know the TV of it yeah but but as00:55:47
you say you you also jousting with00:55:49
wooden lances and here's a little I was00:55:51
jousting down at pend Dennis which is00:55:53
down in Cornwall it's a castle down00:55:55
there Henry the built to fought there as00:55:57
well and and as jousting there we put00:55:59
the lances out overnight on the Saturday00:56:02
night cuz we were jousting on the Sunday00:56:03
morning Sunday morning we couldn't break00:56:06
a single Lance and we were trying to00:56:08
work out what was going on oh the seam00:56:10
Mist had come in and it was very Misty00:56:12
overnight and the wood of all the lances00:56:15
rather than being kind of brittle and00:56:17
dry had got soaked in the mist and was00:56:21
very slightly damp and it didn't break00:56:25
got pictures of the lances bending00:56:26
through 90° and straightening again and00:56:29
it was so frustrating it was only00:56:30
afterwards when we thought about it what00:56:31
was different it was the atmosphere the00:56:34
fact that well it hadn't been rained on00:56:36
but the Mist had soaked into the wood00:56:38
sufficiently to make it more flexible00:56:40
and this would have happened back then00:56:42
you know if your lances were out in the00:56:44
rain if your Squire hadn't bothered or00:56:47
got drunk and hadn't put your lances00:56:48
away in the tent properly you come in00:56:50
the morning and they're flexible and00:56:52
they're really annoying and all these00:56:54
little tiny things suddenly realized00:56:56
quite a lot of skill went into the00:56:57
preparation the ground crew the people00:57:00
supporting the Knight to do his jousting00:57:03
these days we have tiny Crews really but00:57:05
if you were nobility you would have00:57:08
dozens of people looking after yeah a00:57:10
whole retinue you literally and they00:57:12
would be very proud of you you're the00:57:14
you're the point man you're the you're00:57:15
the Lance uh you're the one who's00:57:17
getting all the show offy stuff but00:57:19
you've got this ground crew this pit00:57:21
crew much like Formula 1 the drivers get00:57:23
all the platitudes but there's huge00:57:26
amount of technology that goes behind it00:57:27
and and Engineering of course and it is00:57:30
that engineering that kind of makes this00:57:32
possible and it's the very similar00:57:33
spectacle as well you know that people00:57:35
who are interested in it you know the00:57:36
majority of people who watch form one00:57:38
they're never going to get in a car00:57:40
right you may drive a car so you've got00:57:43
some idea of what it might be like so00:57:44
it's the same thing with jti it's like00:57:46
well yeah you may ride a horse so you've00:57:48
got some idea of like one of the aspects00:57:51
but you know that this is like so far00:57:52
and Beyond and away from what your00:57:55
ordinary expectation of life is that00:57:58
that's what contributes to the00:58:00
theatricality of it and you liken it a00:58:02
little bit to sort of wrestling00:58:04
professional wrestling which is physical00:58:06
but is also as I understand it partly00:58:08
scripted is somebody's00:58:11
got so I'm led to believe you know yeah00:58:14
exactly yeah I mean so obviously it's00:58:16
not scripted in that same way but you00:58:18
know you kind of have like your00:58:20
team and you know especially in the kind00:58:22
of early modern period you know you get00:58:24
into some of the 16th century you know00:58:26
um the outfits that they wear and the00:58:29
incredible armor and you know what the00:58:31
horses will be wearing and they're like00:58:33
oh okay you know there you have that00:58:34
same kind of level of pageantry and yeah00:58:38
you do kind of have the almost00:58:39
scriptedness of wrestling in that you00:58:41
know um you've got these teams and00:58:43
narratives emerge from it but these00:58:46
people are all within the same Social00:58:47
Circles they don't hate each other they00:58:49
want to joust each other right so it's00:58:51
like it's one of these things where00:58:52
everybody's agreed to sign up for this00:58:54
kind of mock combat and I mean it's only00:58:56
mock in that you know well no one's00:58:59
trying to kill anyone but it might00:59:00
happen you know same thing with um00:59:02
professional wrestlers is they're doing00:59:04
really extraordinary physical work and00:59:08
you know it is a sport that is real like00:59:09
in order to do those things everybody00:59:11
has to be working together they have to00:59:12
practice very hard but you know it's for00:59:16
the benefit of every they're aware of00:59:17
the spectacle they're very aware of the00:59:19
spectacle I'm aware that in some museums00:59:21
again in Germany that they have things00:59:23
like clockwork or explosive charges and00:59:26
elements to the armor that if you hit it00:59:29
in the right place the thing sort of00:59:31
shatters and and goes off in a00:59:33
spectacular way so they were genuinely00:59:35
designing armor to be spectacular when00:59:38
struck which is fascinating because it00:59:40
shows you people spending hundreds of00:59:42
thousands of pounds on looking great in00:59:44
the joust and and so it must have been00:59:47
important an important spectacle to see00:59:49
so Humanity hasn't really changed this00:59:52
is one of the key things I think for00:59:53
both of us is that if we went back into00:59:56
the medieval period we'd probably be00:59:58
fascinated but more or less the same01:00:00
people that we are today perhaps yeah oh01:00:03
absolutely was there anything you wanted01:00:05
to round up with how do people find out01:00:08
more about you've got your book are01:00:10
there any other ways of sort of finding01:00:11
out about your work that you want yes01:00:13
absolutely so I've got um a whole blog01:00:15
which is going henm medieval decom where01:00:18
I write uh basically essays about01:00:21
whatever takes my fancy really uh but01:00:23
it's mostly it's usually things were how01:00:25
stuff that happened now is like a01:00:26
medieval thing spoiler alert um but01:00:29
there are any number of things on there01:00:31
so I've got essays about um how medieval01:00:33
People based is the one that I end up01:00:35
getting everyone to to read is very01:00:36
important to me um you know but it can01:00:38
be either that or you know I've got01:00:40
things about the Antichrist I've got01:00:42
things about sexuality check it out um01:00:44
I'm also on Twitter atgo medieval01:00:47
fabulous thank you very much I I feel01:00:49
like we could keep talking for about01:00:51
another four hours this I would love to01:00:54
talk to you again about stuff we haven't01:00:56
done anything about the sexuality side01:00:58
of things and bathouses and and the the01:01:01
concept of sexuality in medieval times01:01:04
but we will come to that another time01:01:06
because it's abut deserving of its own01:01:09
whole podcast but that was absolutely01:01:11
wonderful thank you very much it was an01:01:13
absolute01:01:20
[Music]01:01:23
pleasure01:01:26
[Music]Description:
An audio only podcast. Dr. Eleanor Janega joins Jason Kingsley to discuss some things that we often get wrong about the medieval era. Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMjlDOf0UO9wSijFqPE9wBw/join
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