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Atheist
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jordan peterson
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Jacob
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[Music]
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thank you very much
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hahahaha thank you very much for showing
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up again that's a really good to see
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everybody here so one of the things that
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I've been realizing as a consequence of
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going through these stories is that the
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degree to which they're about
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individuals is quite remarkable and I
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think that's really telling you know one
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of the reasons I prefer Dostoevsky to
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Tolstoy is because Tolstoy is more of a
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sociologist he's more interested in the
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relationship between groups of people
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this is an oversimplification because
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obviously Tolstoy is a great author but
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I like dusty husky better because he
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really delves into the souls of
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individuals and I think it's remarkable
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the degree to which all of the stories
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that we've covered so far in Genesis are
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about individuals and they're quite
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realistic which is quite remarkable -
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they're not really romanticized to any
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great degree because all of the people
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that are regard as regarded let's say as
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patriarchal or matriarchal figures in
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Genesis have no shortage of ethical if
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no shortage of ethical flaws and also no
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shortage of difficulties in their life
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and the difficulties are realistic there
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they're major-league problems you know
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like familial catastrophes and famine
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and war and revenge and hatred and all
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those things it's not a it's not a
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pretty it's not a pretty book and that's
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one of the things that makes it great I
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mean that's one of the things that
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characterizes great literature right is
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that it doesn't present you with a
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whitewashed view of humanity or of
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existence and that's really a relief I
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think because as you all know because
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you're alive there's no such thing as a
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whitewash existence like you're to be
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alive is to be in trouble
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ethically and existentially I've been
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reading this book recently
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I'll talk about it a little bit later
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it's called better never to have a bean
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and it was written by a philosopher
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in South Africa in Cape Town name
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Benatar that's his last name and he
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basically argues I think it's a specious
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argument and I think it's artificially
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constructed but he basically argues that
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because life is so full of suffering
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even good lives are very much full of
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suffering that it's wrong to bring
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children into the world because the
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suffering outweighs the good even in
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good lives and it's actually wrong it
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would also be better not to exist for
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exactly the same reason and my sense in
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reading the book is that he came to that
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conclusion and then wrote the book to
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justify it which is actually the reverse
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of the way that you should write a book
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what you should do when you're writing a
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book is you should have a question and
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you should it should be a real question
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right it should be one you don't know
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the answer to and then you should be
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studying and writing like mad and
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reading everything you can get your
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hands on to see if you can actually
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grapple with the problem and come to
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some solution and you should walk the
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reader as well through your process of
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thinking so that they can come to the
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well not necessary to the same
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conclusion but at least track what
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you're doing and I don't think that's
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what he did I think he wrote it
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backwards but then and so I was thinking
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about it a lot because that's actually a
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question that I've contended with in my
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writing there are Memphis da Philly and
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our satanic figures for example in girth
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is Faust and also Ivan in in that in the
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brothers karamasoff who basically make
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the same case you know that existence is
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so rife with trouble and suffering that
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it would be better if it didn't exist at
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all and the problem I've had with that
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there's a variety of them but one of the
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problems I've had with that is what
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happens if you start to think that way
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because what I've observed is that
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people who begin to think that way that
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isn't where they stop like that they get
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angry at existence which is what
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happened to Cain as we saw in the Cain
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and Abel story and then the next step is
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to start taking revenge against
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existence and that cascades until it's
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revenge against well I think the best
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way of thinking about it is revenge
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against God for the crime of being which
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is I think the deepest sort of hatred
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that
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can entertain and and and when you're in
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the grip of a really deep emotion like a
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really profound emotion right at the
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bottom of emotions you're in something
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that's like a quasi-religious state and
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that's more or less independent of your
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belief saying a transcendent deity I
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mean you can be in a profoundly
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emotional state that's as deep as it can
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be and it can have religious
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significance without that necessarily
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signifying anything about a transcendent
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being you know but but then I was
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thinking you see the problem with that
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argument is you can gerrymander it
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endlessly you know because first of all
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how do you measure suffering and how do
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you measure happiness it's like how do
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you assign weights to them and god
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there's just no way of doing that you
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have to do it arbitrarily and so you can
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make an argument that the suffering
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outweighs the happiness you just wait
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the suffering more heavily than you wait
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the happiness and that's the end of that
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you know and so that's that's a problem
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but I think there's a deeper problem and
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I was reading this other book while back
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as well which was written by the guy who
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ran the human genome project and I don't
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remember exactly what it was called but
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it was something like a scientists case
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for God is something like that and one
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of the things he referred to which
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didn't strike me as hard as it should
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have to begin with was the he thought
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that one of the phenomena say that
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justified a belief in a transcendent
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being was something like the moral
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intuition of human beings that you know
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we have a sense of right and wrong and
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you know it's certainly in what happens
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in Genesis in the story of Adam and Eve
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is that that that story announces the
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coming of the sense of right and wrong
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right the knowledge of good and evil and
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it isn't something we ascribe to animals
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it's something that's unique to human
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beings animals can be predators and you
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know and they can be gentle and and you
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can have a relationship with them but
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you never think of an evil cat or you
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know or an evil wolf even though they're
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you know they're predatory about human
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beings we have this capacity to judge
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between good and evil right and wrong
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and it's really an integral part of our
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being and I think you can make an
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evolutionary case for that a biological
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case for that as you can
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make a biological case for most of what
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is relevant about human beings because
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we're biological creatures but we don't
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really understand the significance of
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that like what happens in the story of
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Adam and Eve is that that's that
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realization not coming to the knowledge
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of good and evil is actually represented
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as a shift of cosmic significance right
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it puts a it puts a permanent fracture
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in the structure of being and you know
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if you think of human beings as
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insignificant ants on a tiny dust mote
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in the middle of an infinite cosmos
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cosmos that cares less for us then who
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cares fundamentally if human beings have
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the knowledge to distinguish between
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good and evil but if you give
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consciousness a central role in being
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and you can make a perfectly reasonable
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case for that because without
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consciousness there's no being as far as
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anyone can determine so it may be much
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more central than we think and and I
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really don't think there's a
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counter-argument to that like not a
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solid one you can state that
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consciousness is epiphenomena land and
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that the world is fundamentally
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materialistic and it doesn't matter that
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there's consciousness you can state that
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but you can make an equally credible
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case the other way and certainly our
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lived experience is that consciousness
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is crucial obviously and we treat each
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other as if most of the time we're
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valuable conscious beings and we
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wouldn't give up our consciousness even
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though it's often consciousness of
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suffering and so then I think another
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problem with the book is that it's it's
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sort of predicated on the idea that life
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is for happiness and I don't think
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that's right and I don't think that's
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how people experience life and I might
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be wrong but it seems to me that people
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experience life as something like a
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series of crucial ethical decisions it's
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something like that I mean when I just
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can't imagine maybe I'm being naive
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about this but I can't imagine that I
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can't imagine another being that's like
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me in in most senses that isn't
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constantly wrestling in some sense with
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what the next proper thing to do is it's
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not like it's obvious it's not bloody
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obvious and it
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doesn't mean you'll do the right thing
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because you don't law lots of times and
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you know that by your own judgement
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right because you're making mistakes all
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the time
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sometimes you don't know what you're
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doing and maybe it's a mistake and maybe
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it isn't and who's to say that isn't
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what I'm talking and what I'm talking
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about when you know that what you're
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doing is wrong and you go ahead and do
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it anyways people do that all the time
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and that's also extremely peculiar you
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bloody well think that if you knew it
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was wrong and you told yourself that it
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was wrong that that would be sufficient
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so that you just wouldn't do it but that
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isn't what you're like at all you know
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and you can tell yourself something is
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wrong a fifty times and you'll do it the
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51st time and then you'll feel you know
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like like you deserve to feel probably
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and but it doesn't stop you and so so
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then I think the other problem with the
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viewpoint the idea that the suffering of
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life eradicate sits utility is that it's
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predicated on the idea that happiness or
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lack of suffering even is is the right
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criteria by which to judge life and I
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don't think that's how we actually
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experience life I think what we do
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instead is put ourselves through a
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series of excruciating moral choices you
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know when one of the things that that's
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really significant about the biblical
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stories and I think about the the entire
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implicit philosophy you know that's
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embedded in the stories is that that's
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how life is presented in in the stories
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is all of these individuals first
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they're individuals - not groups and
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second they're agonizing over their
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moral choices all the time all the time
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and they have a relationship with God
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and but it's not a it's not a directive
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relationship exactly even for the people
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to whom God speaks directly which I
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suspect is not something you'd exactly
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want to have happen is it's there's
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still even the fact that they have a
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direct relationship with God doesn't
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stop them from being tormented
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continually by their moral choices and
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so the world is presented as a moral
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landscape not as a not as a place that
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justifies itself by happiness it's
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presented as a moral landscape and
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people are presented as
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preachers who traverse through the moral
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landscape making ethical decisions that
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determine the course of the world and
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that seems to me to be right and that's
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not a that's not the same as happiness
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by any stretch of the imagination it's a
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whole different category of being and
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you know and then I thought that through
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a lot and I think well we do make
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choices and what we do is contend with
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the future you know and that the future
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seems to appear to us as a realm of
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possibility that's a more accurate way
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of thinking about it then then that the
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future presents itself to it to us as a
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realm of determined things it's it's
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presents itself as a realm of
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possibility and there's good choices in
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that realm and there's poor choices or
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even evil choices in that realm and
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we're negotiating continually deciding
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which of those choices we're going to
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bring into being that seems to me to be
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phenomenologically indisputable and we
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certainly treat each other as if that's
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what we're doing because we hold each
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other responsible for our actions you
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know with some exceptions and that we're
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deciding each moment whether to make
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things better or worse and that seems to
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me to be correct and I think that that's
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what these stories illustrate they don't
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say that directly you know although I
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think it gets more and more explicit as
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the narrative unfolds but and then part
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of the realism of the stories is that
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the people aren't the people that are
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being presented are by no means good I
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mean maybe with the exception of Noah no
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one seemed to be a pretty good guile
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they did he did get drunk and you know
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and and end up naked exposed to his sons
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and so forth and but I mean he isn't
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talked about a lot as a character it's a
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pretty compressed story but Abraham I
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mean Abraham had plenty of problems not
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least of which was in his inability to
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leave home and then you know his lying
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about his wife and their there's all
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sorts of mistakes and then Jacob who
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were going to talk about tonight is an
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even more morally ambivalent character
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he's especially at the beginning of the
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story he's
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it's it's he isn't the sort of person
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that you would pick out especially if
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you were a hack writer you wouldn't pick
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him out as the hero of the story he does
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a lot of things that are really pretty
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reprehensible
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and takes him an awful long time to
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learn better and yet he's the person
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who's put forward as the father of the
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12 tribes of Israel it's from this
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flawed person that the people that that
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may be that whose story you might say is
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that the fundamental constitutes the
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fundamental underpinning of our culture
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it's it's from this deeply flawed
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individual that that group emerges and
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so you might think of that as a relief
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to because you know you're no knight in
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shining armor you know with with a with
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a pure moral past I mean people make
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mistakes of catastrophic proportions
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non-stop you know and that also means
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that these stories put forward something
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approximating hope because in their
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realism in their moral realism they
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present heroes I suppose the heroes of
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renown right the patriarchs of old let's
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say who are realistic people who have
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fits of anger and rage and who are
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murderous at times and who are deeply
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deeply embroiled with family dispute and
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and who who have adulterous affairs and
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and like they do all the terrible things
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that people do and the weird thing is is
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that God is still with them and you know
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it isn't obvious what that means or even
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if it means anything but it's very it's
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not disputable as far as I can tell that
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a were conscious and that consciousness
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is a transcendent phenomena which which
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we do not understand and that the
00:15:43
landscape that we traverse through is
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moral like every story you ever watch
00:15:47
anything that grips your imagination on
00:15:49
the screen or in the theater like any
00:15:51
story that grabs you is a story of moral
00:15:54
striving it's just not interesting
00:15:56
otherwise right the person has to be
00:15:58
confronted with complex moral choices
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and then you see the outcome and you
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know the good guy doesn't
00:16:03
and the bad guy does it badly and things
00:16:05
don't go so well for the bad guy
00:16:07
generally and if it's a bit more
00:16:08
sophisticated than good and the bad are
00:16:10
in the same individual and that's you
00:16:12
know that's a more compelling story but
00:16:20
so we could say well let's we could make
00:16:23
the assumption that it might be
00:16:24
worthwhile thinking of the world as a as
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it has been thought of classically as a
00:16:29
theater upon which the forces of good
00:16:31
and evil continually strive for
00:16:35
dominance and I for the life of me
00:16:38
especially after I started reading
00:16:40
deeply into 20th century history and all
00:16:42
the terrible things that happened in the
00:16:44
20th century and all the terrible
00:16:46
unbelievably incomprehensible things
00:16:49
that people did to one another
00:16:50
I just couldn't see seeing things any
00:16:53
other way is realistic you know because
00:16:57
I don't think that you can immerse
00:17:00
yourself in 20th century history without
00:17:01
coming to the conclusion that evil is a
00:17:03
reality and if it's a reality that it
00:17:07
depends on what you mean by reality but
00:17:09
it's fundamental enough reality for me
00:17:11
and if it's a reality then I don't see
00:17:13
how you can escape from the conclusion
00:17:15
that the cosmos as we experience it at
00:17:18
least is a place of moral striving and
00:17:23
well that's one of the things that's
00:17:25
really illustrated in the story of Jacob
00:17:27
and and I found that quite striking so
00:17:35
so the last time last lecture I ended
00:17:40
with the Abrahamic stories with the
00:17:42
death of Sarah and that was Abraham's
00:17:44
wife and so we're gonna continue from
00:17:47
from there remember Abraham had a son
00:17:50
Isaac and he was asked by God to
00:17:53
sacrifice his son which we talked about
00:17:55
in in some depth and I was attempting to
00:18:00
make the case that you know the idea of
00:18:02
sacrifice was one of humankind's great
00:18:05
discoveries because it meant the
00:18:07
discovery of the future essentially but
00:18:09
it also meant the discovery that the
00:18:11
future was something that you could make
00:18:13
a bargain with and that you could give
00:18:15
up something now something impulsive
00:18:16
some pleasure even a deep pleasure in
00:18:19
the moment and you could strive and
00:18:22
hypothetically you could make a covenant
00:18:24
a bargain with the future and if your
00:18:26
sacrifices were acceptable and that
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seemed to mean an ethically acceptable
00:18:30
you had to sacrifice the right thing
00:18:32
that that vastly increased the
00:18:34
probability that not only you would be
00:18:36
successful let's say but that your
00:18:39
descendants would be too and I don't
00:18:42
think that that's an irrational
00:18:43
proposition I mean you have to leave in
00:18:46
it a bit with the realization that
00:18:48
sometimes you know you get sliced off at
00:18:50
the knees no matter what right because
00:18:52
life has an arbitrary element and and
00:18:54
that can't be tossed out but building in
00:18:58
the arbitrary element will say you still
00:19:01
want to think well what's your best bet
00:19:02
given a certain amount of randomness and
00:19:05
it seems to me that conscious self-aware
00:19:08
sacrifice and proper ethical striving is
00:19:11
your best bet and you know there's
00:19:14
another idea that well I've always
00:19:16
explained it when I've explained it to
00:19:19
people I've always used the movie
00:19:21
Pinocchio as an example you know that
00:19:22
when Geppetto was trying to make his
00:19:24
puppet into a self-aware and autonomous
00:19:28
moral agent which is what he wants above
00:19:32
all else you know he aims at the highest
00:19:35
good that he can conceive which is the
00:19:37
star that he prays to essentially and
00:19:39
hopes for the transformation and there's
00:19:42
also something in that that's
00:19:43
unutterably profound and maybe that is
00:19:46
somewhat independent of the idea that
00:19:48
you
00:19:49
have to believe in God I would also say
00:19:51
that what it means to believe in God in
00:19:53
the old testament is by no means clear
00:19:55
and that's something I also really want
00:19:57
to talk about tonight it's not obvious
00:19:59
what it means and well Gepetto what he
00:20:04
does at least is aim at the highest good
00:20:07
of which he can conceive you know and
00:20:09
that that's actually in a philosophical
00:20:11
definition of God upon occasion that God
00:20:14
is the highest good of which you
00:20:15
conceive and you know that's different
00:20:19
than the idea of a transcendent being
00:20:22
precisely but it's in line with it's in
00:20:25
line with certain interesting
00:20:26
psychoanalytic speculations this is one
00:20:28
of the things I really liked about Carl
00:20:30
Jung you know Jung was so radical a thinker it's just
00:20:33
beyond belief like I've read a lot of
00:20:34
critics of you and I've always I've
00:20:36
always got too kicked out of them
00:20:37
because the things they accused Jung of
00:20:39
are so trivial compared to the things
00:20:41
that Jung actually did that it's like
00:20:43
accusing a murderer of jaywalking like
00:20:47
because Jung was unbelievably radical
00:20:49
like here's one of his ideas you know he
00:20:51
thought that it was necessary he
00:20:54
believed that psychotherapy could be
00:20:56
replaced by a supreme moral effort and
00:20:58
so the moral effort would be something
00:21:00
like aiming after good and then trying
00:21:02
to integrate yourself around that and
00:21:04
that the the good at which you aimed
00:21:08
would be something approximating what
00:21:10
you would be like if you manifested your
00:21:13
full potential and that you have a
00:21:15
glimmering of what that full potential
00:21:18
was so that would be the potential
00:21:19
future you and he thought of that he
00:21:21
thought of people as four dimensional
00:21:23
entities especially essentially that
00:21:25
were stretched across time and that you
00:21:28
as a totality across time including your
00:21:30
potential manifested yourself also in
00:21:32
the here and now and that part of what
00:21:35
your potential manifested itself was
00:21:37
something like the voice of conscious
00:21:39
conscience or intuition
00:21:41
it's amazing idea it's an amazing idea
00:21:43
right because it's like what you could
00:21:45
be in the future beckons to you in the
00:21:47
present and helps you determine the
00:21:49
difference between good and evil
00:21:50
it's a mind-boggling idea and you know I
00:21:53
think that it's an idea you have to
00:21:56
contend with and then he went further
00:21:59
than that and this is this is also
00:22:01
remarkable idea you know he was
00:22:04
interested in this symbolic
00:22:05
representation of Christ and I mean
00:22:08
psychologically speaking and he thought
00:22:10
of Christ as the representation of the
00:22:13
ideal potential human it's something
00:22:16
like that so it was a symbolic rip thats
00:22:19
what Christ was is a symbolic
00:22:21
representation of the ideal potential of
00:22:23
a human being and so for young there was
00:22:25
no difference between there was no
00:22:27
psychological difference between who you
00:22:29
could be in the future beckoning to you
00:22:32
and the prey in the present and
00:22:34
orienting yourself in relationship to
00:22:36
Christ
00:22:37
psychologically those were the same
00:22:38
thing and then so that's a pretty
00:22:42
mind-boggling idea like seriously that's
00:22:44
a mind-boggling idea you know especially
00:22:47
when you add the psychological idea that
00:22:49
the one of the things that characterizes
00:22:51
your ideal future self is the ability to
00:22:53
make sacrifices right and the deeper the
00:22:56
sacrifice the better and then also to
00:22:58
recover from the sacrifice right so
00:23:00
that's the death and rebirth so the part
00:23:02
of you that's most essential to your
00:23:04
full flowering as a as a being is your
00:23:08
ability to let things go and then spring
00:23:11
back from that so to die in some sense
00:23:13
and to be reborn in the service of a
00:23:15
higher good and then well then the next
00:23:18
part of that is that the direction of
00:23:21
the world depends on you doing that so
00:23:24
not only your own life but your family's
00:23:26
life and and because we're networked so
00:23:28
intently together you know that the
00:23:30
whole panoply of humankind that may be
00:23:33
the structure of the of the cosmos and
00:23:35
you know you might think well no but you
00:23:38
know it's not so simple it's not so
00:23:40
simple first of all one person can wreak
00:23:44
an awful lot of havoc there's absolutely
00:23:46
no doubt about that and as we get more
00:23:47
technologically powerful that becomes
00:23:49
even more relevant and important and and
00:23:52
and crucial you know one of the things
00:23:54
that Young said was that we had to wake
00:23:55
up because we are too technologically
00:23:58
powerful to be as morally asleep as we
00:24:00
are and that seems to me just to be
00:24:03
self-evident that's yeah for sure that's
00:24:05
true we're we're we're half asleep with
00:24:08
nuclear bombs it's not a good idea it's
00:24:10
seriously not a good idea and so
00:24:16
well and then you might ask yourself -
00:24:18
you don't well like what is the ultimate
00:24:21
potential of a fully developed human
00:24:24
being and well we certainly know that
00:24:27
you have admiration for people who are
00:24:29
more developed rather than less
00:24:30
developed that's that just happens
00:24:33
automatic or resentment that but that's
00:24:35
okay it's the same thing it doesn't
00:24:37
matter but it's not like you can't
00:24:39
identify them you can identify them you
00:24:41
know and and they're put forward to you
00:24:42
in in in drama and fiction and all of
00:24:45
that constantly so that's another form
00:24:47
of moral intuition you know you can
00:24:49
write you can discern the wheat from the
00:24:50
chaff let's say and and so the other
00:25:01
thing that I was thinking about that's
00:25:03
worth consideration too is that you know
00:25:06
and maybe this is maybe this is petty
00:25:09
but I don't think it is somebody asked
00:25:13
me the other day if I believed in
00:25:14
miracles and I hate being asked
00:25:17
questions like that you know and you
00:25:20
know it's also people ask me do I
00:25:22
believe in God and like I don't know
00:25:24
what they mean when they say that and so
00:25:26
I don't know what the answer because I
00:25:27
don't think we're talking necessarily
00:25:28
going to talk about the same thing but
00:25:30
in any case I said yes and I have a
00:25:32
variety of reasons for that but one of
00:25:34
them is that you know the consensus
00:25:39
among physicists is that we can track
00:25:43
the origin of the cosmos to something
00:25:45
like a hundred millionth of a millionth
00:25:47
of a second after the Big Bang it's like
00:25:49
it's so close to the Big Bang that the
00:25:53
difference is literally infinitesimal
00:25:55
but the consensus is that before that
00:25:58
whatever that is the laws of physics
00:26:00
themselves break down well what what do
00:26:05
you call an event that exists outside
00:26:08
the laws of physics that by definition
00:26:11
that's a miracle now that doesn't
00:26:13
necessarily mean that there's a
00:26:14
transcendent Adi
00:26:16
that caused the event that's a separate
00:26:18
issue but it does imply a barrier of
00:26:22
some sort beyond which we can't go where
00:26:26
some other set of rules apply
00:26:27
and so I find that interesting as well
00:26:31
so all right so Sarah dies and Abraham
00:26:45
makes a bargain with the Hittites to
00:26:50
purchase a burial place for her and they
00:26:52
offer it as a gift and he insists upon
00:26:54
paying for it it's a little story that
00:26:56
basically indicates two things that
00:26:58
Abraham was the kind of guy that you
00:27:01
trust pretty much when you see him and
00:27:03
that even if something is offered to him
00:27:06
as a gift he's going to do everything to
00:27:07
be reciprocal about it and and so it's
00:27:11
not a massively important part of the
00:27:14
story but it's it's in keeping with the
00:27:16
same narrative flow and so Efron who's a
00:27:20
hit I'd offer Zabar you'll place as a
00:27:22
gift and Abraham says no you know you
00:27:24
have to let me pay for it and Efrain
00:27:26
says he will and that works out very
00:27:29
well and so he has a good burial place
00:27:31
for his wife and then Abraham decides
00:27:36
that Isaac needs a wife and so he sends
00:27:41
his eldest servant to Mesopotamia to
00:27:47
find a wife for Isaac and there's a
00:27:50
strange ritual that's performed so it
00:27:53
says in the story that the servant
00:27:55
places his hand under Abraham's thigh to
00:27:58
to swear but that isn't really what it
00:28:01
means it means that he places his hand I
00:28:04
don't know exactly how to say this
00:28:06
properly well use your imagination how
00:28:09
about that and the idea is that as far
00:28:13
as I can tell that he's swearing on the
00:28:15
future he's swearing on future people
00:28:17
it's something like that so that's
00:28:19
that's sort of what testified means
00:28:20
right think about the route well I'm not
00:28:23
kidding I'm not kidding that is what it
00:28:26
that's that is the derivation right it
00:28:28
is the derivation so so so anyways this
00:28:32
is a serious issue and so that servant
00:28:34
has to go and find Isaac a good wife and
00:28:36
he wants him to find Isaac wife who
00:28:40
is willing to accept the same
00:28:43
fundamental belief system which is
00:28:44
something like the belief in a god
00:28:47
that's a unity rather than a plurality
00:28:48
you know the other thing that Jung was
00:28:51
very insistent upon was that there was a
00:28:54
relationship between polytheism and
00:28:59
psychological confusion and monotheism
00:29:02
and psychological unification I really
00:29:04
like that idea too that you know that
00:29:07
what you're trying to do because you are
00:29:09
a plurality that that's one of the
00:29:11
things the psychoanalysts we're really
00:29:12
good at figuring out that the cognitive
00:29:13
scientists haven't touched yet as far as
00:29:16
I could tell they're way behind the
00:29:18
psychoanalysts in that element of
00:29:19
thinking is that you are composed of sub
00:29:21
personalities which all have their own
00:29:24
desires and their own viewpoint their
00:29:26
own thoughts and their own perceptions
00:29:27
and they're in a war with each other
00:29:30
constantly
00:29:31
maybe even a Darwinian war it's been
00:29:34
it's been portrayed that way by certain
00:29:37
neuroscientists and that that one of the
00:29:40
goals of life is to integrate all of
00:29:43
that plurality into a hierarchical
00:29:45
ethical structure that has some
00:29:47
canonical ethic at the pinnacle right
00:29:51
we've talked a little bit about that and
00:29:53
it's not obvious what should be at the
00:29:55
pinnacle but we can guess at it it's
00:29:58
it's that which we admire that's one way
00:30:00
of thinking about it it's that that
00:30:02
describes fair play across a sequence of
00:30:05
games that's another good way of
00:30:07
thinking about it it's it's the heroic
00:30:09
ideal that's another way of thinking
00:30:11
about it but it's it's combined with
00:30:12
generosity you know because the hero the
00:30:15
mythological hero goes out into the
00:30:16
unknown and slays the dragon and gets
00:30:18
the gold but then comes back to the
00:30:21
community and distributes what's found
00:30:22
and so it's courage plus generosity and
00:30:26
and so all of your all of that interior
00:30:29
struggling that you're doing is an
00:30:31
attempt to bang yourself against the
00:30:35
world with challenge constantly to hit
00:30:38
everything together like you're beating
00:30:40
on a piece of iron to to to cure it
00:30:43
let's say so that you don't you're not
00:30:46
an internal contradiction you're not
00:30:48
massive competing gods something like
00:30:50
that because it's just too
00:30:52
psychologically stressful and
00:30:54
hard on everyone else and impossible for
00:30:56
them to get along with you if you're one
00:30:58
thing one moment and another thing
00:30:59
another moment and so so anyways Abraham
00:31:04
insists that Isaac find a wife from
00:31:06
among people who are likely to carry off
00:31:09
forward the monotheistic tradition and
00:31:11
I'm not sure that the monotheistic
00:31:13
tradition is actually indistinguishable
00:31:14
is actually distinguishable from the
00:31:17
individualistic tradition I think they
00:31:19
might be the same thing at different
00:31:21
levels of analysis you know so because
00:31:25
individual means undivided in some sense
00:31:28
right to be an individual means to be
00:31:30
one thing and the other thing that
00:31:33
mitigates against the idea of life as
00:31:35
happiness is it isn't obvious to me that
00:31:37
it's happiness that is what molds you
00:31:40
and shapes you you know it's something
00:31:42
more like optimal challenge voluntarily
00:31:44
undertaken it's something like that
00:31:46
right and I think that's echoed in the
00:31:47
idea that everyone has a moral
00:31:49
obligation to raise their cross
00:31:51
something like that to accept the fact
00:31:54
of their mortality voluntarily I believe
00:31:57
that that's the case and I do actually
00:31:59
think that that's a prerequisite to
00:32:01
proper psychological development because
00:32:03
if you're not willing to take your
00:32:06
mortality on voluntarily like if you're
00:32:08
kicking and fighting about it constantly
00:32:10
and you have every reason to don't get
00:32:12
me wrong then you can't act forthrightly
00:32:15
in the world right you're going to be
00:32:17
afraid and when you're afraid then you
00:32:19
can't voluntarily take on a challenge
00:32:22
and then if you can't take voluntarily
00:32:24
take on a challenge then you can't
00:32:25
develop and so again the life seems to
00:32:27
be something like if it's a proper life
00:32:30
is the voluntarily voluntary taking on
00:32:33
of great challenges and maybe that's
00:32:36
better than happiness like it's
00:32:38
certainly more noble you know it's not a
00:32:40
word we use very much anymore the idea
00:32:42
of nobility because we're so obsessed
00:32:44
with happiness but I think happiness is
00:32:46
a like if it comes along man great you
00:32:49
know wonderful don't don't take it
00:32:52
lightly or for granted because it's
00:32:54
fleeting but the idea that that's what
00:32:57
you should be for in some sense - seems
00:33:00
to me if that's what life is for then
00:33:02
maybe it shouldn't be maybe that's
00:33:04
correct because that isn't what life is
00:33:06
but
00:33:08
so doesn't it isn't obvious to me that
00:33:09
that's what life should be you know I
00:33:11
mean if you really loved someone like
00:33:14
like your son let's say what do you say
00:33:17
well I hope he has a happy life or would
00:33:19
you say I hope he accomplishes great
00:33:21
things it seems to me that that's better
00:33:24
the accomplishing of great things and
00:33:27
because that's admirable you know it's
00:33:30
like a happy person is a happy person
00:33:32
but a noble person is an admirable
00:33:34
person and and that's that's better man
00:33:37
and so maybe there are better things
00:33:39
than happiness and so you can't judge
00:33:42
being on the basis of the ratio of
00:33:45
suffering to pleasure something like
00:33:46
that it's and I don't think we do that I
00:33:49
don't believe we do that I mean
00:33:51
comedians are happy right but everyone
00:33:52
doesn't aspire to be a comedian and you
00:33:54
don't watch comedy all the time even
00:33:56
though you could laugh non-stop more or
00:33:58
less if the comedian's funny you want to
00:34:00
get your teeth into something it also
00:34:02
seems to me that this is one of the
00:34:04
reasons I like the existential
00:34:05
philosophy was that you know the
00:34:08
existentialist believed it's sort of an
00:34:10
original sin idea they believed that we
00:34:12
came into the world with an ethical
00:34:13
burden already laden upon us something
00:34:16
like something like that and that we had
00:34:17
a felt sense that it was necessary for
00:34:19
us to justify our being and if we didn't
00:34:22
do that then we weren't authentic to
00:34:24
ourselves we weren't moving towards
00:34:26
individuality
00:34:27
we weren't sustaining the community we
00:34:29
weren't living properly and that and
00:34:30
that that idea was deeply embedded in
00:34:33
people as part of their ordinary
00:34:35
experience and that also seems to me to
00:34:37
be accurate and you know I've dealt with
00:34:40
lots of people say in my clinical
00:34:42
practice and they don't really cut they
00:34:46
are they will come and say I wish I
00:34:47
wasn't so unhappy but they don't usually
00:34:50
come and say I wish I was happier and
00:34:53
those things aren't the same and and
00:34:54
then when we when you talk to people who
00:34:57
are having trouble you know they want to
00:34:59
straighten things out and figure out how
00:35:01
to do them right it's something like
00:35:02
that and and that that's the primary
00:35:05
that's their primary goal and
00:35:16
so anyways Abraham sends his eldest
00:35:21
servant off to his the place that God
00:35:23
has granted him to find a wife and
00:35:26
interestingly the borders of the
00:35:29
promised land are quite similar to the
00:35:31
current borders of Israel in these are
00:35:34
estimates right based on on the biblical
00:35:36
and I mean that's not a fluke obviously
00:35:38
but it's it's interesting to see the
00:35:41
concordance between these ancient
00:35:44
stories and the present-day world so I
00:35:47
thought that was very interesting and it
00:35:49
shows once again that the past you think
00:35:52
the past is the past but it's not it's
00:35:54
it's still here it's embedded in the
00:35:56
present you know just like the future
00:35:58
and somehow in some ways is folded up
00:36:00
inside the present waiting to unfold the
00:36:02
past is all folded up inside the present
00:36:04
too so anyways the servant goes to the
00:36:21
land that he's been charged to go to and
00:36:24
and he's trying to figure out how in the
00:36:26
world am I going to find a good wife for
00:36:28
Isaac I mean I don't know any of these
00:36:30
people and so he has this little
00:36:31
dialogue that's presented in the form of
00:36:33
a prayer I suppose and he thinks well
00:36:37
I'm gonna go to the place where you
00:36:39
water where people get water and water
00:36:41
the animals and because that's a place
00:36:44
where everyone gathers so that's a good
00:36:46
place to find someone and and it's it's
00:36:48
not a place of fun and lightness and
00:36:50
relaxation and impulsivity it's a place
00:36:52
of life-sustaining work and and he
00:36:56
thinks something like well what would a
00:36:58
decent girl do at a watering place and
00:37:02
he thought well maybe she would offer a
00:37:05
stranger some water and also offer to
00:37:09
water the camels because that would be
00:37:12
brave to approach the stranger and then
00:37:15
generous and then indicative of the
00:37:18
willingness to make an effort and when
00:37:20
you know that a camel I think he took
00:37:23
ten camels was quite a few camels
00:37:25
anyways
00:37:26
just one and that a camel can drink 20
00:37:29
gallons of water and Rebecca who was
00:37:33
drawing water from the wet turns out to
00:37:34
be Rebecca I was drawing water from the
00:37:36
well which is hard right because water
00:37:38
is heavy and you have to lift it up and
00:37:40
it's ten camels and so that's like 200
00:37:43
gallons of waters so you know she has to
00:37:45
put herself out a fair a bit in order to
00:37:47
make this stranger happy and so that's
00:37:50
what happens and then the servant has
00:37:55
brought along gifts and that sort of
00:37:57
thing and anyways to make a long story
00:37:59
short Rebecca
00:38:02
agrees to come back to come back with
00:38:05
the servant and huh marry Isaac and so
00:38:11
then she has she gets pregnant and she
00:38:14
has twins and this is an interesting
00:38:16
thing the twins fight inside her she can
00:38:19
tell that that they're not getting along
00:38:21
and this is an echo right it's an echo
00:38:23
of Cain and Abel and there's a
00:38:26
mythological motif that the unions have
00:38:28
called the hostile brothers the hostile
00:38:30
brothers and you see them all the time
00:38:32
Batman and the Joker are hostile
00:38:33
brothers and Thor and Loki or hostile
00:38:35
brothers and it's an unbelievably common
00:38:38
motif and you know the ultimate hostile
00:38:41
brothers are Christ and Satan so that's
00:38:43
the that's the archetypal representation
00:38:46
of the hostile brothers right the
00:38:48
ultimate good and the ultimate evil and
00:38:49
so and so it's an echo of the cain and
00:38:52
abel story although it's a little more
00:38:55
complex I would say from a literary
00:38:57
point of view because it isn't obvious
00:39:00
which of these brothers is Cain and
00:39:02
which of them is Abel they have parts of
00:39:04
both in each of them so Esau who turns
00:39:08
out to be one of the brothers in Jacob
00:39:10
movie turns out to be the other both
00:39:11
have their admirable qualities and their
00:39:14
faults anyways Esau comes is born first
00:39:18
but Jacob has him by the heel and so
00:39:22
there was a fight within the womb to see
00:39:25
who would emerge first now that's
00:39:28
relevant because the firstborn had a
00:39:30
special status well has a special status
00:39:32
in many communities especially
00:39:34
agricultural communities and there's a
00:39:36
reason all these people were more herds
00:39:38
people but if you divide your
00:39:40
property equally among all your children
00:39:42
then in like three generations everybody
00:39:43
has one goat and everybody starves to
00:39:45
death you know or the same thing happens
00:39:48
with lands so one of the ways that that
00:39:50
traditional communities solve that is
00:39:52
they just give them almost everything to
00:39:54
the firstborn and then the everyone else
00:39:56
knows well you go out and do whatever
00:39:58
you can and it's kind of arbitrary and
00:39:59
unfair but you know at least it's
00:40:01
predictably arbitrary and unfair
00:40:03
instead of doom over for generations you
00:40:07
know so it actually mattered to be the
00:40:09
firstborn and and God generally favors
00:40:11
the firstborn and then you might think
00:40:14
well what is it about being born first
00:40:16
that's so relevant apart from the the
00:40:19
cultural practice of abort generous
00:40:22
inheritance and I would say well the
00:40:23
firstborn is something like the model
00:40:25
for the leader of the family right
00:40:27
because the firstborn child should be if
00:40:29
there's a number of siblings they should
00:40:32
take care of the siblings at least to
00:40:34
some degree but also should be a role
00:40:35
model for them so it's like a natural
00:40:37
position of leadership but there's a
00:40:39
site there's a cycle psychologize ation
00:40:42
of the idea of the firstborn in these
00:40:43
stories because god often passes over
00:40:46
the firstborn in favor of a later born
00:40:48
child he seems to do that on the basis
00:40:52
of moral character essentially and so
00:40:54
there's this idea that well there's a
00:40:56
natural proclivity towards leadership
00:40:59
that's just a biological fact that would
00:41:01
be associated with being a firstborn but
00:41:04
there's a element of characterological
00:41:05
development that transcends that and so
00:41:08
that you it's more important to be
00:41:10
spiritually a firstborn let's say than
00:41:12
to be biologically a firstborn and God
00:41:14
recognizes that continually in these
00:41:17
stories and inverts the natural order
00:41:19
and favors a later born who's who's done
00:41:22
more work with regards to
00:41:24
characterological development and that's
00:41:26
also interesting to you know I've talked
00:41:28
to lots of business people about
00:41:29
leadership and there's a literature on
00:41:31
leadership but it's not a good
00:41:33
literature it's it's pretty shallow
00:41:35
partly because it's not that easy to
00:41:37
define leadership and partly because
00:41:39
there are different you know you people
00:41:42
have different temperaments
00:41:43
and different temperaments can be
00:41:45
leaders they just do it in different
00:41:46
ways
00:41:47
now there's something in common about
00:41:48
being a leader though and I would say
00:41:50
one is that if you're an actual leader
00:41:52
you actually know where you're going
00:41:54
right because what are you gonna do lead
00:41:56
people in circles it's like maybe
00:41:57
they'll follow you but you're not a
00:41:58
leader you're just a charlatan so you
00:42:00
have to know where you're going and then
00:42:02
you have to be able to communicate that
00:42:03
and then people have to trust you so you
00:42:06
actually have to be honest because
00:42:07
people are at that stupid at least not
00:42:09
for a long period of time and then where
00:42:12
you're going has to have some value
00:42:14
because otherwise why would anyone want
00:42:16
to go along with you so and then you
00:42:19
might say well what what are the
00:42:20
attributes then that make you a leader
00:42:22
and I would say well they're characterological fundamentally and this
00:42:25
is not naive optimism or or or casual
00:42:30
moralizing it has nothing to do with
00:42:31
that you know we know for example that
00:42:35
conscientiousness that the personality
00:42:37
trait is a good predictor of long-term
00:42:39
success in in most occupations not all
00:42:42
but most and that one of the things
00:42:44
that's associated with conscientiousness
00:42:45
is that people keep their word they're
00:42:47
trustworthy and that's certainly one
00:42:49
element of a leader especially across
00:42:51
any reasonable amount of time you have
00:42:53
to be able to trust the person they can
00:42:54
even be harsh right it doesn't matter
00:42:56
because you can see harsh leaders and
00:42:57
kind leaders but as long as they do what
00:43:00
they say they will do then then you can
00:43:02
follow them and you know that the future
00:43:04
payoff is is is secure something like
00:43:08
that so the idea that character logical
00:43:11
development is more important to
00:43:12
leadership than primogenitor I think
00:43:15
that's the right word primal Genesis
00:43:18
anyways being a firstborn that's a very
00:43:21
crucial psychological realization that
00:43:24
it's character logical development that
00:43:25
makes you favored of God you know and I
00:43:28
do think we've forgotten this in many
00:43:30
ways because there isn't a lot of
00:43:32
emphasis in our education system on
00:43:35
characterological development and that's
00:43:37
very very surprising to me I think maybe
00:43:39
it's partly because in our fractured
00:43:41
society we can't agree on what
00:43:43
constitutes a reasonable
00:43:44
characterological goal so we just throw
00:43:48
up our hands and don't educate our kids
00:43:50
to any degree at all especially in
00:43:53
schools about what an admirable person
00:43:55
is like or even let them know that well
00:43:57
maybe you should actually try to be one
00:43:59
you know that that's actually the most
00:44:01
important possible thing that you could
00:44:03
learn right
00:44:04
[Applause]
00:44:09
so and I also think and I think this is
00:44:12
laid out very thoroughly in the biblical
00:44:15
stories as well is that if there are
00:44:17
enough people who are admirable then
00:44:20
things work and if there aren't and
00:44:22
things things are terrible
00:44:25
you get wiped out you remember when
00:44:28
Abraham is bargaining with God with
00:44:31
regards to Sodom and Gomorrah he asks
00:44:34
God to save the city if there's like 40
00:44:36
admirable people right respectable but
00:44:39
let's say admirable right I don't want I
00:44:41
don't want to say good because good is
00:44:43
being corrupted in some sense by casual
00:44:45
usage I mean admirable noble people
00:44:48
right I think Abraham bargains got down
00:44:52
to like ten if there's ten of them in
00:44:53
the city the city won't be destroyed and
00:44:55
that that's not very many in this city
00:44:57
so there's an interesting idea there
00:44:59
which is that there there doesn't have
00:45:01
to be that many people in a group who
00:45:03
have their act together but zero is the
00:45:05
wrong number and if it's zero then then
00:45:08
we're seriously in trouble
00:45:11
and I think that goes along with the
00:45:14
idea of the Pareto principle in
00:45:15
economics too which is that it's a small
00:45:17
minority of people who do most of the
00:45:19
productive work in any given domain but
00:45:21
so so a small number of properly
00:45:25
behaving people might have enough of an
00:45:26
impact to keep everything moving and
00:45:28
that might also that might actually be
00:45:30
true but it can't fall below some
00:45:32
crucial level and I do think that we're
00:45:34
in some danger of allowing it to fall
00:45:36
below some crucial level because our
00:45:38
society seems to be at war in some ways
00:45:40
against the idea of the individual and
00:45:43
individual character per se and I think
00:45:46
that's absolutely I think that's
00:45:50
absolutely catastrophic and that's part
00:45:53
of the reason that I'm doing these biblical lectures you know because I
00:45:55
think that I've known for a long time
00:45:58
that the moral presuppositions of a
00:46:01
culture are instantiated in its stories
00:46:04
they're not instantiated in its explicit
00:46:06
philosophy there might be a layer of
00:46:08
explicit philosophy and of course there
00:46:10
is in the West and a layer of explicit
00:46:12
law but underneath that there are
00:46:13
stories and there isn't anything under
00:46:16
the stories except maybe behavior you
00:46:18
know and
00:46:19
that's so implicit it doesn't even
00:46:20
actually count it's not a cognitive
00:46:23
operation and so this is the story these
00:46:26
are the stories that are underneath our
00:46:27
culture and so there better be something
00:46:30
to them that's what we hope and but more
00:46:33
importantly maybe we shouldn't toss them
00:46:36
away without knowing what they mean
00:46:38
because if we toss them away then we're
00:46:41
throwing everything that we depend on
00:46:42
away as far as I can tell and we'll we
00:46:45
will pay for it we'll pay for it
00:46:46
individually because we'll be weak you
00:46:48
know because if you're not firm in your
00:46:50
convictions then someone else who's firm
00:46:53
in their convictions can you're their
00:46:54
puppet like instantly and then you're
00:46:56
also the puppet of your own doubts right
00:46:58
because unless you have convictions
00:47:00
you're gonna generate doubts like mad
00:47:02
because everyone does and then the
00:47:04
doubts win and and you'll be paralyzed
00:47:06
because there'll be you know 50% of you
00:47:09
moving forward and 50% of you frozen
00:47:11
stiff and that'll be enough just to
00:47:13
lodge you in place and so okay so
00:47:20
there's a psychologize ation of the idea
00:47:21
of leadership which is very important
00:47:23
and then it's associated with the idea
00:47:24
of character or logical development and
00:47:26
it's associated with the idea of
00:47:27
struggle not happiness and it's also
00:47:30
associated with this Abrahamic idea
00:47:32
which I really liked and which was
00:47:34
something that's been very useful to me
00:47:35
as a consequence of doing these lectures
00:47:38
because remember at the beginning of the
00:47:40
Abrahamic stories abraham's like a
00:47:42
stay-at-home guy right he's like the guy
00:47:44
who's 40 years old living in his in his
00:47:45
in his mother's basement and god says
00:47:48
like get the hell out of there you know
00:47:49
get out in the world where you belong go
00:47:51
do something difficult because what
00:47:54
you're doing isn't acceptable and you
00:47:56
know the first thing he does is go
00:47:57
somewhere there's a terrible famine and
00:47:59
then he goes somewhere there's a tyranny
00:48:00
so you know it's it's pretty funny he
00:48:03
follows God's call and it's not like
00:48:05
sweetness and light and paradise
00:48:07
immediately it's nothing like that it's
00:48:09
it's instantaneous combat you know of
00:48:12
the most difficult kind so but but
00:48:16
Abraham does in fact follow that impulse
00:48:19
and you know it's interesting too I mean
00:48:22
I don't know here's another thing that
00:48:24
made me a really an advocate of
00:48:26
psychoanalytic thinking and it was the
00:48:29
sort of thing that started to terrify me
00:48:31
about what the human psyche was out
00:48:32
like I started to understand that not
00:48:34
only were we like an amalgam of
00:48:37
relatively autonomous subpersonalities
00:48:40
each of which had the possibility of
00:48:42
gaining control but that we were also
00:48:46
victim you might say or beneficiary of
00:48:50
impulses that were beyond our conscious
00:48:53
formulation or or or understanding or
00:48:56
capacity to resist so here's this here's
00:48:59
a funny story so I was talking to one of
00:49:02
my patreon people online this week and
00:49:04
he said he was a committed atheist and
00:49:07
that's fine you know lots of atheists
00:49:09
are very honest people and they're
00:49:10
atheists because they don't know how to
00:49:13
reconcile what they know with
00:49:16
traditional claims let's say and they're
00:49:18
not willing to just mangle them together
00:49:20
you know and there might be cynicism all
00:49:22
that associated with it as well but he
00:49:24
said he was he said he was entranced by
00:49:26
these biblical lectures you know which
00:49:28
is pretty weird and he said if someone
00:49:30
would have told him a year ago that he
00:49:32
was going to like be obsessed with the
00:49:34
sequence of biblical lectures he would
00:49:35
have told them that they were mad and so
00:49:38
we had a bit of a discussion about that
00:49:39
and because this is an interesting thing
00:49:41
you know and he mentioned this he said
00:49:44
it was something like you don't choose
00:49:46
your interests they choose you and
00:49:48
that's really worth thinking about to
00:49:50
man because you know it's really hard to
00:49:52
get interested in something you're not
00:49:54
interested in even if you know there's a
00:49:55
good reason for it you know you're
00:49:57
studying for an exam you find the
00:49:58
material boring you know anything will
00:50:01
be more interesting than than the
00:50:03
studying even though you know that
00:50:05
that's what you need to do you can't
00:50:06
voluntarily grab yourself by the scruff
00:50:09
of the neck let's say and shake yourself
00:50:11
and say sit down and concentrate your
00:50:13
mind will just go everywhere but then if
00:50:15
you're interested in something and even
00:50:17
if it's something you shouldn't be
00:50:18
interested in because that happens all
00:50:20
the time then it's like you're a laser focus man
00:50:22
you can pay attention forever you can
00:50:24
work until you're exhausted you won't
00:50:26
even notice it then you remember
00:50:27
everything it's like okay if you can't
00:50:30
control your interest
00:50:31
what does and man I tell you you can
00:50:35
think about that for a very long time so
00:50:37
Jung talked about the spirit mercurius
00:50:40
you know Mercury's the winged messenger
00:50:42
of the gods and and here's how he
00:50:44
conceptualized it psychologically he
00:50:46
thought is what the ancient people who thought
00:50:49
about mercury has the winged messenger
00:50:51
of the gods were trying to state
00:50:52
psychologically you know your your
00:50:54
interest Flitz around it's like there's
00:50:56
something that captures it and that
00:50:58
moves your interest from place to place
00:50:59
you know like if you walk into a
00:51:01
bookstore you'll get interested in a
00:51:02
particular book it's as if the book
00:51:04
grips you is you don't know why you're
00:51:06
interested in that you might but often
00:51:08
you don't know why you're interested in
00:51:09
that book and you know your interest is
00:51:11
flitting around and so that's mercury
00:51:13
the thing that makes your interests like
00:51:15
flicker around is mercury the winged
00:51:16
messenger of the gods and mercury is the
00:51:20
messenger of the gods because it's the
00:51:21
things behind the scenes psychologically
00:51:23
that are manipulating your attention and
00:51:25
for Jung those were equivalent in some
00:51:27
sense to the lost gods and so for Jung
00:51:30
your your interest was being manipulated
00:51:33
behind the scenes by unseen forces that
00:51:36
were associated with your character
00:51:37
illogical development across time that
00:51:39
was the manifestation of the self so the
00:51:42
self is this the the potential you let's
00:51:45
say and the way it operates in the
00:51:47
present is by gripping your interest in
00:51:49
directing it somewhere and that's part
00:51:51
of the instinct of self-realization
00:51:53
it's a mind-boggling idea man really
00:51:55
it's I think it's correct I can't see
00:51:58
how it can't be correct it doesn't mean
00:52:00
I understand it completely but it
00:52:01
certainly seems phenomenologically
00:52:03
correct and I mean the potential that
00:52:06
you are has to manifest itself somehow
00:52:08
in in the here and now it has to and
00:52:11
what better way than by directing your
00:52:13
attention you know it's like it seems
00:52:15
like this might be useful for you or
00:52:17
maybe you get attracted to this person
00:52:18
or maybe you admire this person that
00:52:20
happens with kids a lot they'll admire
00:52:22
someone and then copy them and you can
00:52:23
see that that's obviously part of their
00:52:25
developmental progression right it's a
00:52:28
form of hero worship but kids are very
00:52:29
imitative and they hero worship at the
00:52:31
drop of a hat and so they're they're
00:52:34
entranced by the the next stage of
00:52:37
development and if they see someone who
00:52:39
embodies that especially if it's in the
00:52:41
zone of proximal development it's it's
00:52:43
um it's something they could achieve
00:52:44
stretching a bit they find someone who
00:52:47
embodies that next stage of development
00:52:49
and then they start to imitate them and
00:52:51
act like them
00:52:52
well we're adults are no different we're
00:52:54
no different we're just we do it at a
00:52:56
perhaps more abstract and sophisticated
00:52:58
level so okay
00:53:00
so Jacob and Esau are hostile brothers
00:53:05
there they're like Cain and Abel except
00:53:07
the mixture of Cain and Abel and they're
00:53:08
very different Esau was red and covered
00:53:12
with hair he was a hunter and a man of
00:53:13
the field so he's like your basic jock
00:53:15
right he's extroverted he's outgoing
00:53:17
he's really tough he's like
00:53:18
extraordinarily masculine he hunts and
00:53:21
he's a real favorite of his father and
00:53:23
so and and Jacob isn't he's a dweller in
00:53:27
tents and yeah right exactly exactly
00:53:31
exactly right and it says Isaac loved
00:53:34
Esau but Rebekah loved Jacob now that's
00:53:37
a problem right that that's a big
00:53:38
problem and that there's a Freudian
00:53:40
element to this it's like this family is
00:53:42
now divided because one child is the
00:53:44
favorite of the mother and that's Jacob
00:53:46
and one child is the favorite of the
00:53:48
father and so Jacob is kind of a
00:53:50
mother's boy I guess to use an rather
00:53:53
archaic phrase and certainly not as
00:53:56
admirable from his father's perspective
00:53:58
as Esau who's a tough guy who goes out
00:54:01
with a bow and arrow and like you know
00:54:02
wanders around in the plains and brings
00:54:04
animals home and and he's tough he's a
00:54:07
tough guy so and but but there's this
00:54:11
discord in the family because one parent
00:54:14
prefers one child and the other parent
00:54:15
prefers the other and it's obvious from
00:54:18
the story that the parents do not
00:54:19
communicate about this because they
00:54:21
really take sides and so there's a split
00:54:23
in the family and that's I think very
00:54:25
realistic because one of the things that
00:54:28
you do learn if you have a family and of
00:54:29
course most of you do but if you also
00:54:31
think about families is that there's
00:54:33
there's deep divisions within families
00:54:36
very very frequently that no one will
00:54:37
ever talk about and or even think about
00:54:41
often because it's too painful to think
00:54:42
about you know and Freud himself said
00:54:45
Freud was clearly his mother's favorite
00:54:46
and the family sacrificed a lot
00:54:49
including some of the potential
00:54:51
ambitions of the other children in order
00:54:52
to kind of put Sigmund Freud up on a
00:54:54
pedestal and and advance his education
00:54:57
and it worked I mean you know he turned
00:54:59
into a great man but there was a cost to
00:55:01
his siblings and Freud himself said that
00:55:03
there was something about being the
00:55:05
favorite of the mother that gave a
00:55:07
person additional confidence throughout
00:55:10
their life and you know there's there's
00:55:13
something to be said about that even
00:55:15
someone like Eric Erickson you know he
00:55:16
noted that very interested in child
00:55:18
development that that first bonding with
00:55:20
the mother was the it was the place
00:55:22
where trust was established maybe trust
00:55:25
even in the goodness of existence was
00:55:26
established and so anyways Jacob is
00:55:29
Rachel's favorite and he saw his Isaac's
00:55:34
favorite now he saw being extroverted
00:55:42
let's say is also a bit impulsive and
00:55:44
maybe he's not he's a man of action he's
00:55:47
not a forward thinker and but he's also
00:55:50
doing hard work and so you know he goes
00:55:52
out and he's hunting and he's worn out
00:55:53
and he comes home and he's faint with
00:55:56
hunger and Jacob is at home cooking
00:56:00
he's boiling up lentils red lentils and
00:56:02
you know Esau comes in from the hunt and
00:56:05
he's like half starved to death and he's
00:56:07
sitting there in the aroma of these red
00:56:10
lentils reaches them and he's exhausted
00:56:13
and and and he tells Jacob that he wants
00:56:18
some of this stew and Jacob who's being
00:56:23
a pain in the neck fundamentally they
00:56:25
basically says no there's a there's a
00:56:27
teasing thing going on here and and we
00:56:30
won't give him any and and and there's
00:56:33
you have to imagine this because it's
00:56:35
not laid out explicitly in the story but
00:56:36
there's some dispute about whether Esau
00:56:40
gets to have lunch and Jacob finally
00:56:43
says well I'll give you some but you
00:56:44
have to you have to give me your
00:56:46
birthright and he saw you think he must say
00:56:50
something like you know well to hell
00:56:52
with it take it you know you son of a
00:56:55
take it just give me some damn
00:56:57
stew it's something like that so that's
00:57:00
what happens but you know with these
00:57:01
archaic people once he made a statement
00:57:03
like that that was you were done that
00:57:05
was it and so Esau sells his birthright
00:57:10
and this turns out to be incredibly
00:57:12
significant Manson who wrote biblical
00:57:16
commentary said oh there's a bit of a
00:57:19
twist to it so Esau eats the the red
00:57:22
lentils and then from then on his name
00:57:23
is red and you've got to use your
00:57:26
imagine
00:57:27
in a bit I mean people are making fun of
00:57:29
him right that's why they're calling him
00:57:31
red I mean he's already red because we
00:57:32
established that but no one was calling
00:57:35
him red before this and so for the rest
00:57:36
of his life you know every time he goes
00:57:39
out amongst his friends and family they
00:57:41
call him red and sort of snicker because
00:57:43
he's the you know half famished idiot
00:57:45
who sold his birthright for a bowl of
00:57:47
lentils and so it's it's not it's not
00:57:49
that funny actually
00:57:51
and so Esau is not happy about this and
00:57:54
and it actually turns out that this so
00:57:56
what does it mean it means don't sell
00:57:57
the future for the desires of the
00:57:59
present and don't be casual about what
00:58:01
you have and then there's an archetypal
00:58:03
element to this too and Benson says
00:58:05
various have been the opinions what this
00:58:07
birthright was which Esau sold but the
00:58:09
most probable is that together with the
00:58:12
right of sacrificing so determining what
00:58:14
should be sacrificed and when and being
00:58:16
the priest of the family it included the
00:58:19
peculiar blessing promised to the seed
00:58:21
of Abraham that of being the progenitor
00:58:24
of the Messiah and the error of the
00:58:26
special promises of God respecting
00:58:28
Christ's Kingdom it was at least typical
00:58:31
of spiritual privileges those of the
00:58:33
firstborn that are written in heaven
00:58:36
well that's a lot harsher than meets the
00:58:42
eye to begin with and so there's a very
00:58:44
interesting deep moral story there which
00:58:49
is it's sort of Esau does the opposite
00:58:53
of a sacrifice it's the reverse right he
00:58:55
sacrifices the future for the present
00:58:57
and so the story basically says the way
00:59:01
it's laid out across stories is that if
00:59:03
you're the sort of person that
00:59:06
sacrifices the future to the present
00:59:08
then that eradicate the possibility that
00:59:10
you will bring the the most noble being
00:59:14
into existence that's what it means and
00:59:16
you can again this is the psychological
00:59:19
significance of the biblical story so
00:59:21
that's a bad thing to do if you want to
00:59:24
realize your potential let's say you
00:59:27
don't do reverse sacrifices that's a
00:59:29
very bad idea
00:59:30
and so Esau really did himself in by
00:59:33
being too attached to the present
00:59:36
without a vision of the future so he's -
00:59:39
in the moment you know
00:59:40
and and he pays a heavy price for it I
00:59:43
mean he's the first of all he loses his
00:59:45
birthright and and his double
00:59:47
inheritance so there's a practical
00:59:48
consequence and then there's a spiritual
00:59:50
consequence and then he's well he's been
00:59:53
made a fool of by his brother Jacob
00:59:55
means supplanter by the way that's what
00:59:58
the name means and Jacob is always
01:00:00
trying to usurp Esau as we see and so
01:00:03
Jacob gets one over on him and you know
01:00:05
that's not doesn't make an older brother
01:00:07
happy when a younger brother gets
01:00:08
something over on him that's for sure
01:00:10
and then he loses the opportunity to be
01:00:12
the progenitor of the Messiah which is
01:00:14
like people already didn't realize that
01:00:16
precisely but it seems to be you know
01:00:18
it's kind of rough that so and then
01:00:23
there's there's a statement in Matthew
01:00:25
16:26 for what is a man profited if he
01:00:27
shall gain the whole world and lose his
01:00:29
own soul or what shall a man give in
01:00:31
exchange for a saw it's an echo of the
01:00:33
same idea you know when you think well
01:00:35
what is this idea of soul mean and it's
01:00:38
not intellect it said it's something
01:00:40
like it's something like consciousness
01:00:42
allied with character I think and I
01:00:45
think the reason that it's valued so
01:00:46
much is that because you got to ask
01:00:48
yourself well what do you really have
01:00:49
when it comes down to it so life is
01:00:51
suffering let's say and you know you can
01:00:53
you can pile up worldly goods and the
01:00:56
God in the Old Testament doesn't seem to
01:00:58
have anything against that really right
01:00:59
the people who he favors seem to prosper
01:01:02
quite nicely in the world but they also
01:01:05
have to make a choice between whether
01:01:06
they're going to fundamentally sustain
01:01:09
their character or whether they're going
01:01:10
to prosper in the world when push comes
01:01:12
to shove and the idea constantly is that
01:01:15
really what you have in the world that
01:01:17
allows you the best possible defense
01:01:20
against the suffering that's intrinsic
01:01:22
to being is your character that's what
01:01:24
you have period and I don't think there
01:01:27
is anything that's more psychologically
01:01:29
true than that you know because
01:01:30
everything else well first of all your
01:01:33
relationships with others depend on your
01:01:35
character and certainly this is part of
01:01:37
the story of Noah's Ark you know because
01:01:38
his generations were perfect so he had a
01:01:40
very tight familial arrangement everyone
01:01:45
trusted each other that's a big deal if
01:01:47
you hit a rocky patch in your life right
01:01:48
and it's character that it's character
01:01:51
that determines that you know if you're
01:01:53
generous and honor
01:01:54
and all of those things and people know
01:01:55
they can rely on you assuming they're
01:01:57
not resentful that's a whole different
01:01:58
story then they're gonna come to your
01:02:01
aid when when it's necessary they're
01:02:03
gonna pull together with you and you
01:02:05
know when people are really after you
01:02:06
for one reason or another and they're
01:02:08
accusing you of all sorts of things and
01:02:10
you're guilty because you you have a
01:02:12
past it's laden with characterological
01:02:14
errors then it's very easy for people to
01:02:16
take you down because they'll poke until
01:02:19
they hit a place where you're guilty and
01:02:20
then you're done because you'll do
01:02:22
yourself in with your own judgment and
01:02:24
so well so ESO makes a very big mistake
01:02:28
and there's a sacrificial idea here too
01:02:35
which is you know now and then you're
01:02:36
going to be faced with a situation where
01:02:38
it's something you really want or your
01:02:40
character maybe you'll have to lie about
01:02:42
something you know and you'll think what
01:02:45
difference does it make you know a lie
01:02:47
about it Jacob does this but the problem
01:02:50
there's a bunch of problems with that
01:02:51
one is that well now you know that
01:02:53
you're the sort of person that will in
01:02:55
fact deceive yourself about the nature
01:02:57
of reality if something shiny is dangled
01:02:59
in front of you and that's not good
01:03:01
because it undermines your faith in
01:03:03
yourself and when you're really in
01:03:04
trouble they call that the dark night of
01:03:06
the soul when you're really in trouble
01:03:08
that's what you've got you've got
01:03:10
whether or not you can trust yourself
01:03:12
and that's it you know when things are
01:03:15
really harsh and so if you've betrayed
01:03:16
yourself in that manner then you weaken
01:03:20
yourself under the worst possible
01:03:21
circumstances and that's just that's
01:03:23
really not a good thing
01:03:24
so this is very practical advice it's
01:03:29
not casual moralizing there's very
01:03:32
little casual moralizing in these
01:03:33
stories in the next part of this story
01:03:36
there's some parallels with Abraham and
01:03:38
that's built into the narrative I think
01:03:40
because Isaac is Abraham's descendants
01:03:44
and so we have to keep the narrative
01:03:47
echoing forward otherwise it loses its
01:03:49
its continuity and there's a famine in
01:03:53
the land that Isaac sin and God tells
01:03:57
him to stay the course
01:03:58
anyways repeating the promise he he gave
01:04:00
to Abraham
01:04:01
although Isaac goes to AB Emelec also
01:04:05
telling the King and people that Rebecca
01:04:06
was his sister
01:04:07
exactly what Abraham did when he went to
01:04:09
Egypt and so there's another echo there
01:04:11
of the same the same it's as if the
01:04:15
story is being told for a second time
01:04:17
essentially and that's supposed to
01:04:18
remind you of the of the previous story
01:04:20
but they're careless the King sees that
01:04:24
Rebekah and Isaac are intimate together
01:04:27
and luckily he doesn't have them put to
01:04:30
death he just tells everybody in the
01:04:32
kingdom that they're to be left the hell
01:04:33
alone and then Isaac prospers in that land
01:04:37
just like Abraham did in Egypt until the
01:04:40
Philistines asked him to leave he's just
01:04:41
getting too rich and powerful things are
01:04:43
going too well for him so he's asked to
01:04:44
he's asked to leave now in the meantime
01:04:48
Esau gets married Hannah this is a funny
01:04:51
little story he says he marries two
01:04:54
women who give grief to Isaac and
01:04:56
Rebekah so they who every so marries
01:04:59
they're not popular with his with their
01:05:01
in-laws not in the least that actually
01:05:03
becomes relevant a little later because
01:05:05
they drive Rebekah quite mad so I get a
01:05:08
kick out of that because that's very
01:05:09
common you know it's not easy to
01:05:11
integrate new people into your family
01:05:14
and and hope that that will go smoothly
01:05:16
it's actually one of the real
01:05:17
catastrophes in life right you have a
01:05:19
kid maybe you get along with them and
01:05:21
maybe you don't but let's assume you do
01:05:24
but then they marry someone that you
01:05:26
just don't like and or maybe you think
01:05:29
is wrong for them I mean that's really
01:05:30
rough that's what are you gonna do about
01:05:32
that you know because you're you're
01:05:35
basically screwed both ways if you have
01:05:37
the person you love around then you have
01:05:38
to put up with this Prentis creature
01:05:40
that they allied themselves with and if
01:05:42
you if you get rid of them completely
01:05:44
well then you know you don't have your
01:05:45
child anymore so it's a very very
01:05:47
difficult position and so that's another
01:05:50
example of the realism I think of the
01:05:52
stories now Isaac who's hypothetically
01:05:55
on his deathbed asks Esau to hunt for
01:05:57
venison because he likes venison and
01:05:59
he's happy that his son is a hunter and
01:06:01
Rebekah over here is this
01:06:02
and so she conspires with Jacob to to
01:06:08
slaughter two small goats and make his
01:06:11
father some stew because he wants Esau
01:06:14
to make him stew out of venison but
01:06:16
Rebecca who's being I would say let's
01:06:19
say slightly deceitful or
01:06:21
probably lying that would be more
01:06:23
accurate she conspires with Jacob so
01:06:26
Jacob kills two little goats kids and
01:06:28
boils up a stew and then he puts on some
01:06:31
goat skins because Esau is a hairy
01:06:34
character and and Rebecca dresses Isaac
01:06:37
in Esau is clothing because Isaac can't
01:06:40
see very well at this point and so then
01:06:43
Jacob goes into his father with the stew
01:06:45
and he's trying to disguise his voice
01:06:48
but it doesn't work very well and so
01:06:51
Isaac asks him to come close and Jacob
01:06:54
puts out his arm with the goat skin on
01:06:55
it and and Isaac smells him too and he
01:06:58
smells like he's oh and which maybe
01:07:01
wasn't the best thing but and feels like
01:07:05
him and and so because Isaac thinks he's
01:07:08
on his deathbed he decides to deliver a
01:07:11
blessing - hypothetically - Esau and so
01:07:16
but it's Jacob and so that's a big deal
01:07:19
- because the blessing is actually as I
01:07:21
said before with these ancient people it
01:07:23
appeared as though once you said
01:07:25
something you didn't get to take it back
01:07:27
you couldn't say well look you've you
01:07:29
deceived me so it doesn't count
01:07:31
it was like they weren't maybe as as
01:07:38
what week might be one way of thinking
01:07:40
about it but another way is they weren't
01:07:42
quite as attentive to context you know
01:07:43
because if I make you a deal and then it
01:07:46
turns out that you've betrayed me I may
01:07:47
feel that the deal is no longer valid
01:07:49
because the assumption was you were
01:07:51
being honest to be giveth in that you
01:07:53
know violates the whole spirit but that
01:07:55
isn't how these people thought they said
01:07:57
once he promised man you promised and
01:07:58
that was that so Isaac blessed Jacob he
01:08:03
says that God give you the dew of heaven
01:08:05
and the fatness of the earth and plenty
01:08:07
of corn and wine let let people serve
01:08:09
you and nations bow down to you be lord
01:08:11
over thy brethren that's gonna be rough
01:08:13
on e so let thy mother's sons bow down
01:08:15
to the cursed be everyone that curseth
01:08:17
thee and blessed be he the blesseth thee
01:08:20
and so there's a quite a remarkable
01:08:23
painting of that so there's Rebekah
01:08:25
she's looking pretty old and Isaac's
01:08:28
looking pretty blind and Jacobs taking
01:08:31
directions from his mother and we might
01:08:33
say he's perhaps a little old to be
01:08:35
taking moral lessons from his mother especially
01:08:37
given how she's acting and so it's a
01:08:39
pretty ugly scene altogether especially
01:08:41
that we also know that Jacob already
01:08:44
tricked Esau out of his birthright and
01:08:46
so now he's like taking the birthright
01:08:48
and he's taken the blessing and so as I
01:08:52
said that Jacob he turns out to be the
01:08:55
father of Israel it's like he's a
01:08:57
reprehensible character these are
01:08:59
major-league betrayals that he's
01:09:01
engaging and it's not trivial he really
01:09:03
really pulls the rug out from under his
01:09:06
brother and you know you could say well
01:09:07
Esau is not as awake as he might be you
01:09:10
know he's kind of a wild man and fair
01:09:12
enough but it certainly seems to me that
01:09:14
the the predominant moral error falls on
01:09:18
Jacobs shoulders it's very treacherous
01:09:20
behavior what he's doing so then he saw
01:09:23
shows up and he's got a nice stag for
01:09:25
his dad and it's like little late for
01:09:29
that and he states that his brother was
01:09:32
rightly named Jacob which means
01:09:33
supplanter because he's been deceived
01:09:35
twice and Isaac says Isaac answered he's
01:09:40
asking funny I was asking fundamentally
01:09:42
if there's anything at all left over for
01:09:44
him and Isaac can't give him the same
01:09:47
blessing because that's already been
01:09:48
given so he has to think of something
01:09:49
else and Isaac says behold I've made him
01:09:53
thy Lord and all his brothers I've given
01:09:56
to him for servants which includes you
01:09:58
and with corn and wine have I sustained
01:10:00
him and what shall I now do unto thee my
01:10:02
son and Esau said unto his father have
01:10:05
you even one blessing for me my father
01:10:07
and blessed me also and an e so lifted
01:10:10
up his voice and wept and you know we
01:10:12
already know that Esau is a pretty tough
01:10:13
guy by all appearances and you know he's
01:10:16
out there hunting on his own and camping
01:10:18
and it's like he's no pushover and the
01:10:19
fact that this reduces him to tears is
01:10:21
an indication of the magnitude of the
01:10:24
betrayal and Isaac says behold thy
01:10:27
dwelling shall be the fatness of the
01:10:28
earth and of the dew of heaven from
01:10:30
above and by thy sword thou shalt live
01:10:32
and thou shalt serve your brother and it
01:10:34
shall come to pass when you will have
01:10:36
the Dominion and you'll break the yoke
01:10:37
his yoke off from thy neck and Esau
01:10:40
hated Jacob because of the blessing
01:10:41
wherewith his father blessed him and
01:10:43
Esau said in his heart the days of
01:10:46
mourning for my father are at hand then
01:10:48
I will slay my
01:10:49
Jakub so fundamentally you know if Isaac
01:10:53
dies or when he dies then we'll mourn
01:10:56
for him and then Jacob better look the
01:10:58
hell out because it's like it's it's
01:11:00
serious death coming his way and you
01:11:04
know he's got a he's got a point he's in
01:11:07
in Dante's Inferno I think I mentioned
01:11:10
this at one point so Dante's Inferno
01:11:12
it's a very interesting story it's a
01:11:13
descent into hell
01:11:14
and it's it's actually one of the places
01:11:17
that we sort of derive the popular
01:11:19
conception of Hell was partly based on
01:11:21
Dante's on Dante's imagination on his
01:11:24
work and what Dante was trying to do was
01:11:26
to discover the hierarchical structure
01:11:28
of evil and you know you might think
01:11:30
there's a hierarchical structure of good
01:11:32
some things are better than other things
01:11:33
but there's also a hierarchical
01:11:35
structure of evil some evils are greater
01:11:37
than other evils and he put betrayal in
01:11:39
the in the in the lowest part of health
01:11:41
right so if you were betraying people
01:11:43
you were right besides Satan himself and
01:11:46
so and I think that's good that's very
01:11:48
smart well Dante was a genius after all
01:11:51
and I think the reason for that is that
01:11:54
you see if someone trusts you they're
01:11:57
laying their vulnerability open to you
01:11:59
now they might just be naive let's say
01:12:01
and that's we won't think about that
01:12:03
because you're just a child if you're
01:12:05
naive you can still be betrayed but if
01:12:07
you're an adult and you trust it's often
01:12:09
because you if you're an actual adult
01:12:11
its you willingly open yourself up
01:12:14
knowing that you could be hurt right
01:12:15
because you're not naive anymore so you
01:12:17
decide to trust and you see all open
01:12:19
myself up and I know that I'm laying
01:12:23
myself open to you if you choose to use
01:12:25
that power and then that's a good thing
01:12:27
to know you know if you've been hurt as
01:12:29
a child or hurt as a naive person you
01:12:31
might say well why should I ever trust
01:12:32
again which is a really good question
01:12:34
and the answer is the reason you trust
01:12:36
again once you're an adult is because
01:12:38
you're courageous you're courageous
01:12:41
it's an act of courage to trust and the
01:12:43
reason it's useful is because if you
01:12:46
trust someone you open the door to
01:12:48
reciprocity and negotiation and
01:12:50
cooperation and you entice the best part
01:12:54
of the person forward and so it's a it's
01:12:56
a courageous act but then if you betray
01:12:59
someone then what you've done is you've
01:13:02
taken the best part
01:13:03
them which is the part that will
01:13:04
courageously trust you know with open
01:13:07
eyes right and you've stuck a dagger in
01:13:09
that and so you've purposefully damaged
01:13:12
the best part of them and so that's why
01:13:14
it's such a egregious fault and and it's
01:13:19
often people don't recover from that
01:13:20
sort of playing at you if you betray
01:13:22
someone badly enough you can you can
01:13:24
damage them like you can give them
01:13:26
post-traumatic stress disorder if you
01:13:27
really if you really put your mind to it
01:13:29
and you know that's not just a
01:13:31
psychological disorder if you have
01:13:33
post-traumatic stress disorder it
01:13:34
produces permanent neurological
01:13:36
alterations that make you more neurotic
01:13:38
more sensitive to negative emotion
01:13:40
really for the rest of your life like
01:13:42
you can you can recover from it to some
01:13:45
degree but stress will tend to reinstate
01:13:49
the PTSD so you you hurt someone and
01:13:53
it's not merely cycled not not that
01:13:55
psychological is merely but it's not
01:13:57
merely psychological right it's it's
01:13:59
fundamental physiological damage
01:14:01
so anyways Jacobs smart enough to get
01:14:05
out of there and which is also not
01:14:08
really a testament to his integrity
01:14:10
right I mean he's done these terrible
01:14:13
things at the behest of his mother
01:14:15
because he wants power and and he wants
01:14:18
to get it without deserving it and then
01:14:20
you know he finally goes too far and he
01:14:22
hightailed it out of there to his to
01:14:25
another family member to his mother's
01:14:27
brother and so it's not exactly the
01:14:31
world's most heroic story that's for
01:14:34
sure and so now there's an interlude
01:14:36
here and this is a really interesting
01:14:38
interlude it's the story of Jacob's
01:14:41
Ladder so he's off to visit Lebon or lab
01:14:44
and who's his his mother's brother and
01:14:47
on the way he he has asleep and he
01:14:51
lighted upon a certain place and tarried
01:14:53
there all night because the Sun was set
01:14:55
and he took of the stones of that place
01:14:57
and put them for his pillows which seems
01:14:59
to indicate very bad planning on on his
01:15:01
part and and lay down in that place to
01:15:04
sleep and he dreamed and beheld a ladder
01:15:07
set up on the earth and the top of it
01:15:08
reached to heaven and beheld the angels
01:15:10
of God ascending and descending on it
01:15:12
and behold the Lord stood above it and
01:15:14
said I am the Lord God of Abraham thy
01:15:16
far and the guard of Isaac the land were on
01:15:19
thou liest to thee I will give it and to
01:15:21
thy seed and so this story of Jacob's
01:15:26
Ladder has really possessed the
01:15:28
imagination of the West and there's a
01:15:30
reason for that it's because it's an
01:15:31
archetypal story because the idea of a
01:15:34
ladder that reaches to heaven is one of
01:15:35
the oldest ideas of mankind so you find
01:15:38
it widely distributed among the shamanic
01:15:40
cultures for example and it's a hallmark
01:15:42
of psychedelic experience that's another
01:15:44
way of thinking about it which is a very
01:15:46
peculiar thing so there's one
01:15:48
representation of of the ladder you see
01:15:50
god up at the top there peeking out from
01:15:53
the clouds now you know that's sort of
01:15:56
where we get the idea that God is in in
01:15:59
heaven and then heavens up in the sky
01:16:01
and and that's an easy story to make fun
01:16:04
of because you know we've gone up to the
01:16:06
moon and there's no God there and and
01:16:08
but but this this is not a reasonable
01:16:12
way of conceptualizing what these
01:16:15
experiences are about these experiences
01:16:18
what this is the opening up there that's
01:16:20
more like an opening into an alternate
01:16:23
dimension that's a better way of
01:16:24
thinking about it's beyond like from
01:16:26
from the judeo-christian perspective one
01:16:28
of the things you have to understand is
01:16:29
that God is beyond space and time he's
01:16:31
not in the universe he's outside the
01:16:34
universe in some manner and so the idea
01:16:37
that that you have an experience of God
01:16:38
and it's up isn't the OP is the best
01:16:41
that the human imagination can do with
01:16:44
what's essentially a form of extra
01:16:46
dimensional experience or that's the
01:16:48
best way to conceptualize it and these
01:16:50
experiences aren't rare you know they
01:16:52
they make the they make up the core of
01:16:54
of the shamanic tradition and so there's
01:16:57
an intrusion of the ancient shamanic
01:16:59
tradition which is tens of thousands of
01:17:00
years old
01:17:01
into the biblical stories at this point
01:17:04
now why Jacob had a essentially shamanic
01:17:08
experience is very difficult to tell
01:17:09
because we don't know what these old
01:17:11
people were up to right and we don't
01:17:12
know how much of the archaic tradition
01:17:15
archaic religious tradition was still
01:17:18
extant about at that point in time but
01:17:21
we certainly do know that our ancient
01:17:22
forebears were using psychedelic
01:17:26
substances constantly like Amanita
01:17:28
muscaria mushrooms for example which
01:17:30
were widely used in India before they became
01:17:32
extinct that's the theory anyways that
01:17:34
seemed to be the basis of the chemical
01:17:36
soma which much has been written about
01:17:39
and so we here ever this as a dream that
01:17:43
were as a vision and perhaps that's what
01:17:45
it was but perhaps that wasn't what it
01:17:46
was either and perhaps it was an
01:17:49
experience that was induced by or by the
01:17:53
same processes that shamanic people have
01:17:57
always induced these experiences and so
01:17:59
we're gonna go through this a little bit
01:18:00
so anyways there's a there's a
01:18:02
connection between heaven and earth that
01:18:04
opens up that's that's that's the that's
01:18:06
the vision and there's messengers moving
01:18:09
up and down now one way you can
01:18:11
conceptualize that is psychologically as
01:18:13
we already discussed that you know there
01:18:15
there are forces within you that are
01:18:18
active and alive and you can think of
01:18:21
them in some sense as messengers of the
01:18:23
higher self and so you could think about
01:18:25
this as an image of a psychological
01:18:27
reality but and so we can stick with
01:18:30
that but but here's some of the
01:18:35
representations that have been made I
01:18:36
really like the one on the right that's
01:18:39
William Blake I like the helix idea and
01:18:42
I don't think that that's that's fluke
01:18:45
there are helixes and double helixes and
01:18:47
all sorts of imaging imagery very
01:18:49
ancient and very modern that are
01:18:51
associated with both healing and with
01:18:53
this kind of vision so and you see it in
01:18:56
the Blake representation God is
01:18:58
associated with well really with the Sun
01:19:01
and with light and and you see that on
01:19:03
the left as well that wherever God is is
01:19:06
where light is and so that's a very
01:19:08
interesting idea as far as I'm concerned
01:19:09
as well there's some other
01:19:11
representations one by Chanel
01:19:22
so now there's this idea that there's a
01:19:25
there's the possibility of opening up a
01:19:27
line of communication between the human
01:19:29
psyche and the transcendent divine and
01:19:31
there's a there's a great image of
01:19:34
Christ as Pam - they're so creator of
01:19:36
the world that is one of the first
01:19:38
mosaics if I remember correctly and I
01:19:40
wish I knew remember where it was but I
01:19:42
don't but it's a very interesting image
01:19:44
I'm having a carving of it made at the
01:19:46
moment by a friend of mine but you see
01:19:50
Christ's face portrayed in a medieval
01:19:53
manner and he's holding a book so it
01:19:56
symbolizes the importance of the book
01:19:58
you know as a means of transmitting
01:20:00
wisdom and his face is very asymmetrical
01:20:03
and that the eyes are different one side
01:20:06
and the other and one half of the face
01:20:08
represents the human part and the other
01:20:10
side of the face represents the divine
01:20:12
part and you know I also think about
01:20:14
that psychologically because I do think
01:20:17
that that's the right way to
01:20:19
conceptualize human beings is that
01:20:21
there's an aspect of us that's mortal
01:20:23
and human and limited but there's an
01:20:25
aspect of us that's transcendent and
01:20:27
divine as well and it's latent in some
01:20:29
sense but there are times when it
01:20:31
manifests itself and this is not
01:20:33
speculation right this is like the
01:20:37
oldest experience of human beings now
01:20:39
it's not necessarily an easy experience
01:20:41
to have but it's reported everywhere and
01:20:44
it can be reliably induced as we've
01:20:46
discussed before by chemical means which
01:20:48
and I don't know what that means exactly
01:20:50
we've talked a little bit about
01:20:51
psilocybin mushrooms for example and you
01:20:53
could say that the mystical experiences
01:20:55
that have been invoked in the newest
01:20:57
experiments down it Johns Hopkins are
01:21:00
arrangements or forms of psychosis you
01:21:03
know because they have some similarity
01:21:05
to psycho psychotic experiences although
01:21:08
psychotic people were given LSD in the
01:21:11
60s and they always said that that was
01:21:13
something different than what they were
01:21:14
having and if you give psychotic people
01:21:16
amphetamines you could make them worse
01:21:18
so their bio chemically separate and we
01:21:21
know that and but also the thing that's
01:21:23
so interesting about the psilocybin
01:21:24
experience is is that they reliably
01:21:27
produce mystical experiences that the
01:21:28
people rate as among the most important
01:21:30
experiences of their life and among
01:21:33
those who have
01:21:34
the psychedelic experience positive
01:21:36
things happen to them and so that kind
01:21:39
of messes with the whole psychosis
01:21:41
theory right because what are you gonna
01:21:42
do you got a claim that you give someone
01:21:44
a pill and they have a psychotic break
01:21:45
and then they're healthier it's like no
01:21:47
that isn't how psychotic breaks work
01:21:49
you're not healthy or after having one
01:21:51
you're like you're a broken egg and it's
01:21:54
not easy to put you back together so and
01:21:57
we know that people all over the world
01:21:59
have discovered every manner of
01:22:00
psychedelic substance that you could
01:22:02
possibly while you imagine there's lots
01:22:04
of hungry people wandering the earth for
01:22:06
a long time and they eat every damn
01:22:07
thing they could get their hands on and
01:22:09
now and then something very peculiar
01:22:11
happened as a consequence so so I'm
01:22:17
gonna tell you a little bit about the
01:22:19
shamanic tradition because it's
01:22:22
associated with Jacob's Ladder so
01:22:24
according to le a de murcia le odd it
01:22:27
was a great historian of religion a
01:22:28
comparative Jung's and and and they
01:22:31
influenced each other quite
01:22:32
substantially le otta believed that
01:22:34
shamanism that used psychedelics was a
01:22:37
degeneration from the original more pure
01:22:40
shamanism but I think later scholarship
01:22:42
has demonstrated that that's incorrect
01:22:44
that that the shamanic ritual per se was
01:22:47
a direct consequence of the use
01:22:49
discovery of an and ritualistic use of
01:22:52
psychedelic substances but anyways
01:22:54
Eliana identified three pathways to
01:22:58
shamanism and the shaman in it in a
01:23:00
tribe was more educated than the typical
01:23:04
person with a larger vocabulary and was
01:23:08
the repository of the oral tradition and
01:23:10
so learned all the stories that had been
01:23:13
passed down word to mouth and people by
01:23:16
the way are very very can very very
01:23:19
accurately tell the same story across
01:23:20
generations that's been quite well
01:23:22
documented so and and people who can't
01:23:25
read really can remember because what
01:23:28
else are they going to do their memories
01:23:30
are far greater than modern people's
01:23:32
memories because we can forget
01:23:33
everything because we can just look it
01:23:34
up but they remembered things because
01:23:37
they had no choice my father knew
01:23:39
someone who was illiterate and and and
01:23:42
and couldn't use numbers either when he
01:23:45
grew up in Saskatchewan
01:23:47
you know sixty years ago and he was a he
01:23:50
had a sheep if I remember correctly and
01:23:52
although he couldn't count he knew if
01:23:54
one of his sheep was missing because he
01:23:56
knew all the sheep and so he could tell
01:23:58
just by looking if one of the sheep was
01:24:00
missing but he couldn't count and so
01:24:02
well so people who don't have our
01:24:05
particular set of skills first of all
01:24:06
they're not stupid and second they have
01:24:08
other skills that we don't understand to
01:24:10
fill in the gaps so le ah de identified
01:24:13
spontaneous vocation so you were just
01:24:16
you have this spirit of a shaman let's
01:24:18
say so you're probably extremely high in
01:24:19
openness let's say from a modern
01:24:21
perspective hereditary transmission so
01:24:23
you know your father was a shaman and
01:24:25
your grandfather was a shaman and so
01:24:26
forth and you got initiated into that
01:24:28
process or a personal quest in Siberia
01:24:33
this is from Ileana in Siberia the youth
01:24:36
who is called to be a shaman attracts
01:24:38
attention by his strange behavior for
01:24:41
example he seeks solitude becomes
01:24:42
absent-minded loves to roam in the woods
01:24:44
or unfrequented places has visions and
01:24:46
sings in his sleep you know if you put
01:24:48
someone in a place that's deprived
01:24:50
that's where you're you're deprived from
01:24:53
a sensory perspective it normal people
01:24:56
will hallucinate quite quickly so it
01:24:58
seems what happens is that if you dampen
01:25:00
down the sensory input then you start to
01:25:02
become aware of the background processes
01:25:04
of your mind it's something like that
01:25:05
it's like the signal-to-noise ratio I
01:25:07
got to get this right as the noise
01:25:11
decreases some of the noise becomes
01:25:14
signal the background noise become
01:25:16
signal and you start to become aware of
01:25:17
your own internal psychological process
01:25:19
is it something like that he has visions
01:25:22
and sings in his sleep in some instances
01:25:24
this period of incubation is marked by
01:25:26
quite serious symptoms among the accout
01:25:28
young man sometimes has fits of fury and
01:25:30
easily loses consciousness hides in the
01:25:32
forest feeds on the bark of trees throws
01:25:34
himself into water and fire and cuts
01:25:37
themselves with knives we went to a part
01:25:41
lash in northern northern Vancouver
01:25:44
Island about a year ago and they had
01:25:46
this one dance
01:25:47
it was the croc Wakulla natives and they
01:25:50
had this interesting dance that was the
01:25:51
dance of the wild man and so the person
01:25:54
who invited us was the wild man and he
01:25:55
was dressed up and in tree branches and
01:25:58
so forth and so he was the person who'd
01:26:00
been in
01:26:01
Bush too long and he came in as a
01:26:03
cannibal and there there was genuine
01:26:06
cannibalistic rights among these people
01:26:07
not so long ago he came in as a cannibal
01:26:10
and everybody had to wear this like
01:26:11
cedar headdress because if you had a
01:26:13
cedar headdress on then the cannibal
01:26:15
wouldn't take a bite out of you and they
01:26:17
actually took this rather seriously so
01:26:19
you should have your cedar headdress on
01:26:21
and so he's looking around the crowd and
01:26:23
there's like 400 people in this place
01:26:25
and he could really act - so he's doing
01:26:27
this wild man dance and then all the
01:26:29
women stood up and started to kind of
01:26:32
dance in place and sing and they were
01:26:35
taming him so that was really cool you
01:26:37
know it was really interesting to see
01:26:39
that because those people are about
01:26:40
they've had an unbroken culture for
01:26:42
about 13,000 years say that's how long
01:26:44
they've been out there and it was very
01:26:47
interesting to see that dramatization of
01:26:49
the domestication of of man by women
01:26:52
laid out in that dance in that way but
01:26:55
it was also interesting in relationship
01:26:57
to the shamanic tradition because he
01:26:58
came in as a wild man right and he had
01:27:00
to be re civilized in some sense and
01:27:03
brought back down to earth so but by
01:27:07
whatever method he may have been
01:27:09
designated as shaman is recognized as
01:27:11
such only after having received two
01:27:13
methods of instruction the first is
01:27:15
ecstatic dreams trances visions the
01:27:18
other thing that this guy told me and I
01:27:20
have no reason to doubt him he's also
01:27:24
not a literate person and so has a great
01:27:27
memory he does carving traditional
01:27:29
carving and he's very good at it he
01:27:31
carved a 53-foot totem pole that's now
01:27:33
in front of the Museum of Art in
01:27:35
downtown Montreal so if you ever go
01:27:38
there you can go see it I won't be there
01:27:40
forever but it's there right now and he
01:27:44
was taught to carve by his grandparents
01:27:45
and he said that he dreamed in you know
01:27:49
you know what the Haida images look like
01:27:51
so the Crocker walks are kind of like
01:27:53
the high that same sort of imagery he
01:27:54
told me that he dreamed in those images
01:27:56
so when he dreams that's the form that
01:27:59
the things he dreams about takes and he
01:28:02
also said that he would talk to his
01:28:04
grandparents in his dream so if he was
01:28:05
working on a piece of wood and trying to
01:28:07
figure out how to carve it and he ran
01:28:09
into a particularly difficult problem
01:28:11
he'd dream and his great he'd have a
01:28:12
conversation with his grandparents and
01:28:14
they'd help him figure to solve the problem and then he wake up
01:28:16
and he could go Karva and the thing is
01:28:18
he told me these things sort of
01:28:20
matter-of-factly
01:28:21
right like you don't you know what I
01:28:22
mean it wasn't like he was telling me
01:28:25
these weird things that happened to him
01:28:27
although he was doing that to some
01:28:28
degree he I asked him a lot of questions
01:28:32
about what he carved and what it all
01:28:34
meant and you know that was just part of
01:28:36
his explanation of how he did it and he
01:28:38
he carved me a couple of doors that I
01:28:40
have in my house and one of them is
01:28:43
quite interesting well the to make a
01:28:45
panel and they're an underwater scene
01:28:49
and under the water there's a bunch of
01:28:50
you know mythical monsters some of them
01:28:53
are killer whales and I think there's an
01:28:55
octopus down there and carved in this
01:28:57
particular style and he said that the
01:28:59
other thing that happens to him when he
01:29:00
dreams is he goes down to the bottom of
01:29:02
the water where these mythical creatures
01:29:04
are and he gets inspiration from them
01:29:06
and so I thought that was extremely
01:29:08
interesting too
01:29:09
you know we we don't know what a mind
01:29:12
that isn't hyper civilized let's say
01:29:15
hyper literate like like our minds are
01:29:17
cuz we're so bombarded by external
01:29:19
stimuli we have no idea what the natural
01:29:22
mind is like really and so it was quite
01:29:25
interesting to to to listen to that and
01:29:28
also to see the consequences cuz he's
01:29:30
quite a great he's quite a great carver
01:29:32
so the first is ecstatic dreams trances
01:29:35
visions the second is traditional
01:29:37
shamanic techniques names and functions
01:29:39
of the spirits mythology and genealogy
01:29:41
of the clan a secret language this
01:29:44
twofold teaching imparted by the spirits
01:29:46
and the old master shamans constitutes
01:29:47
initiation well so you know modern
01:29:50
people have a problem with that because
01:29:51
we don't really get initiated but I
01:29:53
would say that you know let's say that
01:30:01
we reach out a quest of some sort you
01:30:03
wouldn't be here I don't think if you
01:30:05
weren't because why else would you be
01:30:06
here and so you're on a quest of some
01:30:10
sort to figure out to struggle with the
01:30:13
meaning of life let's say and you don't
01:30:16
want to do that alone because you only
01:30:18
last like 70 years and good luck
01:30:19
figuring it out on your on your own it's
01:30:21
just not gonna happen it's too
01:30:22
complicated and you'll be too isolated
01:30:25
right if it's just you that's insanity
01:30:27
that's no one can stand that and so you
01:30:30
hope that other people have things to
01:30:31
tell you and that your culture has
01:30:33
something to tell you you know so you're
01:30:34
on a quest maybe not with the same
01:30:36
intensity as a shamanic initiate but you
01:30:39
know let's give you some credit and then
01:30:41
you're also trying to understand the
01:30:44
wisdom of the past and that's the second
01:30:47
part of this it's like okay well you're
01:30:48
a human being and human beings have been
01:30:49
telling stories for a long period of
01:30:51
time trying to figure out what's going
01:30:53
on trying to figure out how to orient
01:30:54
themselves in the world and so you know
01:30:56
partly what you're doing here is exactly
01:30:58
what the shamanic initiatives in the
01:31:00
second part of the process which is to
01:31:02
expose yourself to the degree that you
01:31:04
can - names and functions of the spirits
01:31:08
mythology and genealogy of the clan and
01:31:10
the secret language this twofold
01:31:13
teaching imparted by the spirits and the
01:31:15
old master shamans constitutes
01:31:17
initiation so it's that's the rebirth
01:31:20
right yeah that's that's what a nation
01:31:22
is it's being born again and and that's
01:31:26
a birth of the spirit rather than over
01:31:28
the body it's something like that and so
01:31:29
it's the rebirth of an integrated psyche
01:31:31
that's one way of thinking about it and
01:31:33
a psyche that's that's individual but
01:31:36
also grounded in common humanity and the
01:31:39
wisdom of common humanity and that makes
01:31:41
you strong or at least it makes you
01:31:43
stronger because there's a limit to your
01:31:45
strength but God Only Knows to some
01:31:48
degree what that limit is you know
01:31:49
people can be unbelievably tough
01:31:51
unbelievably tough and I think it's even
01:31:54
the more admirable for human beings to
01:31:56
be tough because we're so conscious of
01:31:58
how we can be hurt and we're so
01:32:00
conscious of what that hurt can lead to
01:32:03
you know you can have your family taken
01:32:05
away from you and you can be destroyed
01:32:07
and the fact that you can be courageous
01:32:09
in the face of that at all is something
01:32:11
that is absolutely unbelievable right
01:32:13
and people deserve a lot more credit I
01:32:15
think then people give themselves
01:32:17
because the fact that we can be
01:32:20
honorable under conditions of life and
01:32:23
death right of suffering that's that's a
01:32:26
testament to the human spirit and
01:32:28
there's a profound anti human ethos I
01:32:33
think that pervades our culture you know
01:32:34
that considers human beings cancers on
01:32:37
the planet something like that you know
01:32:38
and that there should be less of us it's
01:32:40
the same
01:32:41
spirit that motivated the guy who wrote
01:32:43
the book about it better to have never
01:32:46
been it's like I don't see it that way
01:32:47
you know I mean I think people do pretty
01:32:50
well for you know for having their leg
01:32:53
caught in a bear trap and their head
01:32:54
caught in a vise they're actually doing
01:32:56
pretty well because life is really hard
01:32:58
and the fact that we're not absolutely
01:33:00
brutal and murderous all the time is
01:33:02
really something remarkable given what
01:33:05
we actually have to contend with that we
01:33:06
can go out of our way to be honest and
01:33:08
generous and altruistic and to care for
01:33:11
each other under unbelievably dire
01:33:13
circumstances and to act nobly sometimes
01:33:16
under the most trying conditions you
01:33:18
know in Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago
01:33:20
he tells story after story of people who
01:33:23
acted abysmally but also people who
01:33:25
under the worst threats imaginable never
01:33:28
sacrificed their character you know in
01:33:30
reading about that is really well it
01:33:35
really makes you wonder that's that's
01:33:37
what it does the future shamans among
01:33:39
the Tungus as they approach maturity go
01:33:41
through a hysterical or a history would
01:33:43
crisis but sometimes their vocation
01:33:45
manifests itself at an earlier age the
01:33:47
boy runs away into the mountains and
01:33:48
remains there for a week or more feeding
01:33:50
on animals which he tears to pieces with
01:33:52
his teeth he returns to the village
01:33:55
filthy blood-stained and it's only after
01:33:57
10 or more days that have passed that he
01:33:59
begins to babble incoherent words the
01:34:02
strange behavior of future shamans has
01:34:04
not failed to attract the attention of
01:34:06
scholars and from the middle of the past
01:34:07
century several attempts have been made
01:34:09
to explain the phenomena as a mental
01:34:11
disorder but the problem was wrongly put
01:34:13
from the one hand it is not true that
01:34:15
shamans always are always have to be
01:34:17
neuropathic in mentally deranged on the
01:34:21
other hand and this is the critical
01:34:23
issue those among them who had been ill
01:34:25
become shamans precisely because they
01:34:26
had succeeded in becoming cured so it
01:34:29
was it's not the descent into this
01:34:31
strange subterranean psychological state
01:34:34
that constitutes the transformation that
01:34:38
makes the shaman but it's the emergence
01:34:40
back out of it and that's a journey to
01:34:41
the underworld in a and a rebirth right
01:34:43
and so and there's this great book this
01:34:45
is a great book by a guy named Henry
01:34:48
Ellen birch a and he was an existential
01:34:51
psychoanalyst and philosopher and he
01:34:53
wrote a book called the Discoverer
01:34:54
of the unconscious which I would highly
01:34:56
recommend it's on my list of recommended
01:34:57
readings it is a great book if you want
01:34:59
to know about the psychoanalytic
01:35:02
tradition it's the best introduction
01:35:05
there is and he discusses Adler and Jung
01:35:08
and Freud and there's a very credible
01:35:10
job of all three but also takes the
01:35:12
history of psychoanalytic thought back
01:35:14
three or four hundred years before Freud
01:35:16
and so it's it's very engaging reading
01:35:19
and and and and very interesting and one
01:35:22
of the things alan burridge a points out
01:35:23
quite clearly is and he associates this
01:35:27
to some degree with this shamanic
01:35:28
tradition that both Freud and Jung Jung
01:35:30
in particular underwent very intense
01:35:33
periods of psychological disturbance
01:35:35
let's say and I would say what was
01:35:37
happening is that because they were
01:35:39
questioning their axioms at the most
01:35:42
fundamental level they were deranging
01:35:44
their cognitive and perceptual
01:35:45
structures right and Jung was also
01:35:47
experimenting with imaginative
01:35:49
techniques with visionary techniques
01:35:51
which he which he did a lot and there is
01:35:53
a period of his life where he was having
01:35:55
constant a constant stream of visions
01:35:58
which he wrote down in a book called the
01:35:59
red book but at the same time he was
01:36:02
still functioning as a psychiatrist and
01:36:04
operating normally in the world and so
01:36:06
you know people have suggested that what
01:36:09
he had was a psychotic break but that's
01:36:10
ridiculous because you don't know that's
01:36:12
not how it works man if you're having a
01:36:14
psychotic break you you know I've been
01:36:16
an effective psychiatrist those things
01:36:18
do not go together especially not for a
01:36:19
long period of time and so there there's
01:36:22
the possibility of extreme experience
01:36:25
without psycho psychopathology and so
01:36:29
and Allen Burgess he says much the same
01:36:32
thing about Freud and about Charles
01:36:34
Darwin as well who underwent a terrible
01:36:36
period of of mental confusion I would
01:36:42
say as a consequence of formulating his
01:36:44
theory of evolution which was really
01:36:46
hard on him because he was a he was a
01:36:47
die-hard Christian and he knew what he
01:36:50
knew what the implications of his theory
01:36:52
word he didn't know what to do about
01:36:53
that you know so it was very very hard
01:36:55
on him so it's quite common for people
01:36:57
of genius to go through an intense
01:37:00
crisis psychological crisis but then
01:37:03
resolve it and the genius is in the
01:37:05
resolution right
01:37:06
the
01:37:07
precondition for the genius is the
01:37:08
dissolution in some sense because you
01:37:10
have to be obsessed with the problem it
01:37:12
has to grip you completely before you're
01:37:14
going to concentrate it on it's so
01:37:15
obsessively that you might come up with
01:37:16
a solution but it's the people who come
01:37:18
up with a solution that are the prophets
01:37:22
in the shaman and so forth and so on and
01:37:23
and and so that's not this isn't
01:37:26
something that only characterizes
01:37:28
archaic cultures we just don't recognize
01:37:29
it in our own culture properly and and
01:37:32
that's a problem well sometimes we do
01:37:36
right you remember that in the Lion King
01:37:39
right that Rafiki shows up he's the
01:37:41
shaman he brings he brings Simba down
01:37:46
that tunnel dark tunnel that's the dark
01:37:47
night of the soul he has him reflect
01:37:49
upon himself in a pool when he reflects
01:37:52
upon himself deeply he sees the
01:37:53
reflection of his father then that
01:37:55
becomes a car thing of cosmic
01:37:56
significance and his father appears in
01:37:59
the sky just like God appears to jacob
01:38:02
and basically tells them that it's time
01:38:04
for him to grow the hell up and to
01:38:06
return to the devastated kingdom and to
01:38:09
set it right you know and so and that's
01:38:12
right that's exactly right I mean we
01:38:14
live in the devastated Kingdom that's an
01:38:16
eternal truth and it's the
01:38:17
responsibility of the individual to grow
01:38:19
the hell up and to set it right because
01:38:23
when it's devastated and when things are
01:38:25
not in place then everyone suffers too
01:38:27
much and that's not good
01:38:29
and there's no excuse for not doing
01:38:30
something about it because you don't
01:38:32
have anything better to do so and even
01:38:36
like children's movies tell you this so
01:38:40
[Music]
01:38:42
this is a fun one this is from the Eid
01:38:46
wine Psalter 9th to 12th century and
01:38:48
that's Adam and Eve but the there is
01:38:52
speculation that the fruit that they're
01:38:54
eating there you see it is psilocybin
01:38:56
mushrooms right because they're the only
01:38:59
kind of mushroom that grow like that so
01:39:02
that's pretty wild
01:39:03
you might say and then this is the I
01:39:07
think it's called Bannister realign if I
01:39:09
remember correctly and it's what
01:39:10
ayahuasca is made out of and it has this
01:39:12
double helix form which is very very
01:39:15
interesting and they the people the
01:39:17
natives nobody could figure out how the
01:39:18
hell they made this ayahuasca we
01:39:20
which transports people spiritually in a
01:39:23
very intense manner and there's a whole
01:39:25
religion based on it like a modern
01:39:27
religion as well as the archaic religion
01:39:29
and to make this stuff they had to take
01:39:31
two plants that don't grow anywhere near
01:39:33
each other and like there's like a
01:39:35
million plants in the Amazon so like how
01:39:37
do you figure that out nobody knows and
01:39:39
then you have to cook them in this very
01:39:41
particular way for a particular amount
01:39:43
of time before you produce this stuff so
01:39:45
one of the plants has DMT in it which is
01:39:47
a very intense psychedelic but it's very
01:39:49
short acting and the other has an MAO
01:39:52
inhibitor so if you take the DMT and you
01:39:55
take the MAO inhibitor then the DMT trip
01:39:57
lasts for much longer and so that's what
01:39:59
these Amazonian natives figured out and
01:40:01
no one has any idea how they managed it
01:40:03
and if you ask them they tell you that
01:40:05
the plants told them how to do it which
01:40:07
isn't much of an explanation as far as
01:40:09
modern people are concerned but then
01:40:11
when modern people take the ayahuasca
01:40:12
and the plant so to speak starts to talk
01:40:16
to them there are a little less leery of
01:40:18
the whole theory that the plants had
01:40:19
something to do with this so you know
01:40:22
and these things that these I'm loathe
01:40:24
to talk about this because I'm not an
01:40:26
advocate for drug use but by the same
01:40:29
token you can't ignore empirical data
01:40:31
it's not reasonable and the empirical
01:40:34
data that psychedelic substances can
01:40:36
produce mystical experiences and that
01:40:38
those often have a transformative effect
01:40:39
I mean one of the latest studies showed
01:40:41
that if you took people who are dying of
01:40:43
cancer and you and you gave them
01:40:45
psilocybin in a sufficient dose to
01:40:47
produce a mystical experience that you
01:40:49
radically it decreased their their fear
01:40:51
of death it's like you go to think about
01:40:55
that man that's that's tough that's a
01:40:58
tough experiment you you just wouldn't
01:41:00
expect that that you think you take
01:41:02
someone you'd arranged them intensely
01:41:05
and then when they come back they're not
01:41:07
even though they're dying they're not
01:41:08
nearly as afraid of dying you know you
01:41:10
got to kind of wake up and smell the
01:41:12
roses when you see something like that
01:41:14
and the people who are doing this
01:41:15
research are very reliable people so
01:41:18
there's the Amanita muscaria you know
01:41:21
there's this old idea it's quite a funny
01:41:23
idea
01:41:24
toadstools so flies like Amanita
01:41:26
muscaria and there's some this is
01:41:29
ridiculous there's some evidence that
01:41:31
they actually like getting stoned
01:41:34
so cuz animals will eat these like
01:41:36
reindeer will eat these things too and
01:41:37
they get pretty tripped out by them and
01:41:39
so I have this book on psychedelic use
01:41:42
among animals which is a small book but
01:41:44
and so so there's there's this idea that
01:41:49
toads used to sit around the they have
01:41:51
any NamUs carry and wait for the stone
01:41:53
flies to like buzz badly around them and
01:41:56
then snap them up so that's pretty funny
01:41:58
I think and so and you know there are
01:42:02
mushrooms in in the u.s. that are the
01:42:04
oldest the oldest organisms on the
01:42:07
planet a there's one mushroom I can't
01:42:09
remember where it is but it covers
01:42:10
something like oh god I don't know like
01:42:12
square hundreds of square miles it's
01:42:15
like this huge thing because it's all
01:42:16
underground right and they have these
01:42:18
very complex networks of my Celia
01:42:21
they're called and they think the thing
01:42:23
is like a hundred and fifty thousand
01:42:24
years old something like that so there's
01:42:27
plenty of things about the world that we
01:42:28
don't know that's for sure there's the
01:42:32
chemical makeup of the classic
01:42:34
psychedelics you see they all have the
01:42:36
same fundamental structure this is
01:42:37
serotonin that's the one of the major
01:42:40
brain neurotransmitters and so what
01:42:41
happens with the psychedelics is that
01:42:43
they they alter the they alter the brain
01:42:47
function by altering the neuro chemical
01:42:51
utilization of serotonin
01:42:53
they changed the manner in which the
01:42:54
serotonergic systems worked and the
01:42:57
serotonin system is very basic system
01:42:59
because when you're an embryo and your
01:43:01
brain is developing it's the serotonin
01:43:03
projections that basically orchestrate
01:43:05
the development of your brain so they're
01:43:07
and they're very archaic circuits very
01:43:09
very archaic circuits so and this is the
01:43:14
paper I think I stole this from
01:43:16
psilocybin Griffiths who's been doing a
01:43:19
lot of this research psilocybin can
01:43:20
occasion mystical type experiences
01:43:22
having substantial and sustained
01:43:23
personal meaning and spiritual
01:43:25
significance
01:43:26
so why that's a good question right like
01:43:31
so so here's a question for you it is
01:43:34
beyond dispute that human beings are
01:43:35
capable of religious experience why why
01:43:40
is that exactly and like you can
01:43:43
associate it with psychosis but that
01:43:44
doesn't work if the theory doesn't hold
01:43:47
theory hold water it's not the same thing so
01:43:50
why is it there exactly and it's not an
01:43:54
easy thing to figure out like I've been
01:43:56
trying to figure I'm always trying to
01:43:57
figure out a biological explanation for
01:43:58
everything right because if you want to
01:44:00
find something to stand on you want to
01:44:02
make sure that it can resist a challenge
01:44:03
and so if I can find an explanation for
01:44:05
something that's reductionistic and
01:44:07
materialistic and biological then I'm
01:44:09
going for that that's a tough one
01:44:11
consciousness is a tough one the moral
01:44:14
sense is a tough one they're not easy
01:44:16
things to crack the Big Bang is a tough
01:44:18
one so you know I mean a cynic might say
01:44:25
that maybe sometimes when people are
01:44:29
close to suicide they'll have a mystical
01:44:32
experience you know and you maybe you
01:44:34
say well it's a last-ditch attempt of
01:44:36
your brain to delude you into thinking
01:44:38
that your life has some significance you
01:44:40
know and that's a plausible theory but I
01:44:44
don't think it counts for the generality
01:44:47
of the phenomena so so I don't buy it
01:44:56
what happens in the shamanic experience
01:45:00
is that the shaman has the experience of
01:45:03
being reduced to a skeleton first so
01:45:06
death a deaf experience very realistic
01:45:09
death experience and then the next thing
01:45:11
that happens is that he finds himself in
01:45:15
a place where he's communing with his
01:45:16
ancestor or the ancestral spirits and
01:45:19
then after that there's the climbing of
01:45:22
something like the ladder Jacob's Ladder
01:45:25
se and an encounter with God for all
01:45:29
intents and purposes and it's very
01:45:32
widespread phenomena it's the World Tree
01:45:38
and I've thought about this a lot trying
01:45:40
to figure out what this what this
01:45:42
represents according to a yeah coot
01:45:44
informant that's in Siberia the spirits
01:45:46
carry the future shaman to hell and shut
01:45:48
him in a house for three years here he
01:45:50
undergoes his initiation the spirits cut
01:45:52
off his head which they set off to one
01:45:54
side for the novice must watch his own
01:45:57
dismemberment with his own eyes
01:45:58
dissolution to the primary elements in
01:46:01
some and hack his body to bits which are
01:46:03
later distributed among the spirits of
01:46:05
various sicknesses it's only on this
01:46:07
condition that the future shaman will
01:46:09
obtain the power of healing his bones
01:46:11
are then covered with new flesh and in
01:46:12
some case he is also given new blood so
01:46:15
there's a death and resurrection
01:46:16
experience that's associated with the
01:46:18
shamanic ritual we're here in the
01:46:24
presence of a very ancient religious
01:46:25
idea which belongs to the hunter culture
01:46:27
bone symbolizes the final route of
01:46:30
animal life the mould from which the
01:46:31
flesh continually rises it is from the
01:46:34
bone that men and animals are reborn for
01:46:36
a time they maintain themselves in an
01:46:38
existence of the flesh then they die and
01:46:40
their life is reduced to the essence
01:46:41
concentrated in the skeleton from which
01:46:43
they will be born again that's a good
01:46:49
graphic representation of the experience
01:46:54
that's an old painting by I think it's
01:46:56
her own amis Bosch if I remember
01:46:58
correctly and I really like that because
01:46:59
it's it's reminiscent of the near-death
01:47:01
experiences that you hear people
01:47:03
describe and they're quite common as
01:47:05
well and and I had that very weird
01:47:08
experience once I don't think I've told
01:47:10
you this story
01:47:11
I was I was assessing someone who had
01:47:15
gone through a car windshield and he was
01:47:16
very depressed it had happened a long
01:47:18
time before but he was very depressed
01:47:20
and the insurance company was basically
01:47:22
accusing him of malingering because he'd
01:47:25
been depressed for so long and you know
01:47:26
he'd sort of healed up and everything
01:47:28
but if your left hemisphere is damaged
01:47:30
especially the frontal part of your left
01:47:31
hemisphere then you can be in a chronic
01:47:33
state of depression because the left
01:47:35
hemisphere generally speaking is
01:47:37
responsible for positive emotion and so
01:47:39
if it isn't there then it's like
01:47:40
negative emotion for you and so I
01:47:43
wouldn't assess him and I was giving him
01:47:45
this I think it was called the MMPI the
01:47:47
Minnesota multiphasic personality
01:47:49
inventory which is a kind of a standard
01:47:52
path personality test half
01:47:55
psychopathology test and he was filling
01:47:59
it out he was a very serious guy
01:48:00
middle-aged guy nothing about him was
01:48:02
new agey in the least he was like an
01:48:05
accountant I think I think in fact he
01:48:07
was an accountant if I remember
01:48:08
correctly and there was one question and
01:48:12
it said my spirit has left my
01:48:16
I think that's right it's very close and
01:48:18
he stopped and he asked me well he said
01:48:22
I'm not sure how to answer this and so I
01:48:25
said well why and he said well after I
01:48:27
went through the car windshield I was in
01:48:29
a coma for three weeks something like
01:48:32
that and I died I think he said he died
01:48:33
three times and he said that he could
01:48:36
remember he couldn't remember anything
01:48:39
during that period of time and he
01:48:40
couldn't remember the car accident
01:48:41
that's retrograde amnesia it's quite
01:48:43
corn common with head injuries and he
01:48:45
said that during one of those
01:48:47
experiences and this is all he
01:48:49
remembered from the hospital was that he
01:48:51
came out of his body and went down the
01:48:54
long tunnel of light you've heard these
01:48:56
near-death experiences and then saw his
01:48:58
family members there and saw the
01:49:00
heavenly light and then realized that it
01:49:03
wasn't his time and came back to his
01:49:05
body now what was interesting about this
01:49:08
guy was that well first of all I didn't
01:49:10
ask him about this right he basically
01:49:12
volunteered this story and it was
01:49:14
instigated by this question and and he
01:49:20
didn't know that anybody else at any
01:49:22
ever had an experience like that cuz I
01:49:23
asked him if he'd ever heard anything
01:49:25
about like that he said no so that was
01:49:27
interesting but what really was
01:49:29
interesting is how the hell did he
01:49:31
remember that right because he had
01:49:33
amnesia during that entire period of
01:49:35
time he was in a bloody coma so he
01:49:38
didn't remember anything they remembered
01:49:39
that and so well those experiences are
01:49:45
more common than you think and then
01:49:47
there's a you know there's a painting of
01:49:48
one which is quite interesting and
01:49:50
that's like a tunnel to heaven it's the
01:49:52
same basic idea it's a little bit more
01:49:54
suffering going on in this one I think
01:49:55
but that's pretty much typical of
01:49:57
Hieronymous Bosch I mean I don't know
01:49:59
what was up with that guy but he was he
01:50:01
was one strange character now the
01:50:04
Scandinavians have this idea that the
01:50:07
world is a tree and I've been thinking
01:50:11
about that a lot I think that the tree
01:50:13
idea tree is something that is grounded
01:50:17
in in matter let's say and that reaches
01:50:20
up to heaven in the Scandinavian tree at
01:50:22
the bottom there's quite a cool idea at
01:50:23
the bottom of that see this tree is
01:50:25
constantly being gnawed by snakes you
01:50:27
can sort of see the snakes at the bottom
01:50:29
and at the same time it's being watered
01:50:31
and the water makes the tree grow at the
01:50:33
same rate that the snakes gnaw on its
01:50:35
roots so it's like a yin-yang idea you
01:50:37
know that there's continual chaotic
01:50:39
destruction and replacement at the basis
01:50:41
of whatever this process is but the tree
01:50:44
seems to me to be a representation not
01:50:45
so much of its it's like a different
01:50:48
dimensional space that's that's what's
01:50:50
trying to be represented so imagine that
01:50:53
you know you're structured if you take
01:50:56
powers of ten magnification say human
01:50:58
beings are about in the middle of the
01:51:00
tiniest thing and the largest thing if
01:51:02
you do it by my powers of 10 and so you
01:51:05
know you have a subatomic level in an
01:51:08
atomic level a molecular level and you
01:51:10
know then that may be a level of organs
01:51:14
and then there's you and then there's
01:51:15
your family and so on all the way up the
01:51:17
the tree fundamentally and so I think
01:51:21
that what this tree represents and this
01:51:23
is the things that thing that the shaman
01:51:25
moves up and down I think that's what it
01:51:27
represents it's this it's this different
01:51:29
view of of its dimensionality it's
01:51:32
something like that and I think that
01:51:33
what happens in the psychedelic
01:51:35
experience is that consciousness can
01:51:36
travel up and down that structure it's
01:51:38
something like that and maybe not only
01:51:40
up and down it but maybe right through
01:51:42
it and I know that's a radical claim
01:51:44
it's a really radical claim and it might
01:51:47
be wrong but it's probably wrong even
01:51:50
because most radical claims are wrong
01:51:52
but but but I'm not so sure it's wrong
01:52:03
and here's something cool so that's the
01:52:07
Scandinavian world tree and that was
01:52:09
drawn by an anthropologist who visited
01:52:13
the tribes in the Amazon who use
01:52:15
ayahuasca now you see it's a snake it's
01:52:23
a tree with snakes well you know that's
01:52:25
reminiscent of the story in Adam and Eve
01:52:28
obviously but it's also reminiscent of
01:52:30
our primate dwelling place right because
01:52:32
that was basically our ancestral home a
01:52:35
tree surrounded by snakes and the snakes
01:52:38
like to eat us and this is a long time
01:52:40
ago this is like 50 million years ago
01:52:43
it's really a long time ago and so we
01:52:47
don't know where these images come from
01:52:49
precisely but I do have the suspicion
01:52:52
that we use the circuitry that we
01:52:56
developed to detect snakes to represent
01:52:59
the unknown as such because like a snake
01:53:02
is something that comes out of the
01:53:04
unknown and like we evolved right we all
01:53:06
evolved out of an animal sub structure
01:53:08
and so we had to get our our biological
01:53:12
cognitive structure from somewhere and
01:53:14
we have this capacity of thinking about
01:53:16
the absolute unknown and the terrors
01:53:18
that are involved in that that the
01:53:20
horrors that can emerge from what we
01:53:21
don't understand and it stands perfectly
01:53:23
to reason that we would use circuits
01:53:26
that were already pre developed for that
01:53:27
and that this is a reasonable
01:53:29
representation of the existential
01:53:31
structure of the world so I think I
01:53:36
might have showed you this before but it
01:53:40
never ceases to amaze me this this
01:53:42
picture so my son drew this when he was
01:53:45
nine eight and so on the right you see
01:53:47
mushroom houses and they have the names
01:53:50
of all his friends on them and so that's
01:53:53
order right and then on the left side
01:53:56
you see chaos there and that little
01:53:58
orange thing is a bug and then there's a
01:54:00
river that runs right down the middle
01:54:02
and so that's like the you know the
01:54:05
yin-yang symbol with the divide in the
01:54:07
middle that's quite cool and then
01:54:08
there's there it is there's Jacob's
01:54:10
Ladder it's like Jack and the Beanstalk which
01:54:12
is by the way another variant of the
01:54:15
same shamanic story
01:54:17
and there are bugs going up and down it
01:54:18
they're taking messages from heaven
01:54:21
and then up there in heaven it's got the
01:54:24
Sun and there's st. Peter and I don't
01:54:26
know where in the world he got this it's
01:54:28
not like he had a lot of religious
01:54:30
education I mean despite me and you know
01:54:34
there's the pearly gates up there and
01:54:36
then that was the world as far as his he
01:54:38
had a very well ordered psyche I would
01:54:40
say and and still does but when he drew
01:54:43
that it just absolutely blew me away and
01:54:45
so I had it laminated and it's in my
01:54:47
office because well I don't know because
01:54:50
like what the hell do you make of that
01:54:51
you know that's that's why so well you
01:55:07
sort of get the picture there you know
01:55:08
the cathedrals the great cathedrals of
01:55:10
Europe are there like the forests in
01:55:14
stone right and they try to represent
01:55:16
the light coming through the leaves and
01:55:18
so it's sort of our ancestral forest
01:55:20
home but it's it's transformed into
01:55:22
these great sculptures of stone and you
01:55:25
know they produce all because of the
01:55:27
combination of light and darkness and
01:55:29
color but also I think for the same
01:55:31
reason that huge trees produce awe and
01:55:33
people you know and we don't want them
01:55:35
cut down they seem sacred in some sense
01:55:37
and perhaps they are but you know it
01:55:42
also seemed to me this is an intuition
01:55:45
that the the architects of these great
01:55:48
cathedrals were trying to get they're
01:55:50
trying to express something that's deep
01:55:52
and structural they're trying time
01:55:54
trying to express the idea that if being
01:55:56
was constituted properly then it would
01:55:59
be organized from the subatomic level
01:56:01
all the way up to the highest cosmic
01:56:04
level perfectly so every layer stacked
01:56:07
on top of each other without any
01:56:08
contradictions now that would be an
01:56:10
ideal mode of being and everything would
01:56:12
come together under those circumstances
01:56:14
and that's what's being expressed in
01:56:17
these cathedrals it's not all that's
01:56:18
being expressed because they're also
01:56:19
shaped like a cross and you know the
01:56:21
idea is that the center of the cross
01:56:24
which is the center of suffering is also
01:56:25
the place of the individual the place
01:56:27
where the transformation takes place
01:56:29
that's all built into the architect
01:56:30
as well and so then there's the tree
01:56:39
like structures that make us up it
01:56:43
stretched down to the tiniest realities
01:56:49
the microcosm and there's this this idea
01:56:58
it's all represented in the same way
01:57:00
again it's this idea especially the
01:57:01
Mandela up in the top-right it's the
01:57:04
idea of is perfection of crystalline
01:57:07
structure and that's what the Yogi's are
01:57:09
trying to attain when they organize
01:57:11
their bodies they're trying to get every
01:57:12
single layer of their being aligned
01:57:15
properly and it's something like and you
01:57:17
can kind of see an echo of that in the I
01:57:19
think that's a Tibetan sand painting if
01:57:22
I remember correctly left the idea is
01:57:26
that if you get yourself a line properly
01:57:28
then information can flow along that
01:57:30
tree that that's you without without
01:57:35
impediment something like that and that
01:57:37
would be like a state of optimal health
01:57:39
and that both physical and spiritual
01:57:42
exercises can put you in that state and
01:57:45
that's well those are all clouds of
01:57:47
ideas that surround this idea of a
01:57:49
ladder to heaven so Jacob is talking to
01:57:54
God and God says behold I am with thee
01:57:56
and I will keep thee in all places where
01:57:59
you go and bring you again into this
01:58:01
land for I won't leave you until I have
01:58:03
done that which I have spoken to you of
01:58:04
and Jacob awakened out of his sleep and
01:58:09
he said surely the Lord is in this place
01:58:10
and I knew it not and he was afraid and
01:58:12
said how dreadful is this place this is
01:58:15
none other but the house of God and this
01:58:16
is the gate of heaven when Jacob rose up
01:58:19
early in the morning and took the stone
01:58:21
that he had put for his pillows and set
01:58:22
it up for a pillar and poured oil on top
01:58:25
of it that's a sacrifice and he called
01:58:28
the name of that place Bethel but the
01:58:29
name of the city was called l-'izzat the
01:58:31
first and Jacob vowed a vow saying if
01:58:34
God will be with me and will keep me in
01:58:36
this way that I go and will give me
01:58:37
bread to eat and raiment to put on so
01:58:40
that I come again to my father's house
01:58:42
in peace then shall the Lord be my god
01:58:44
and this stone which I have set for a
01:58:46
pillar shall be God's house and of all
01:58:48
of that that is given to me I will
01:58:50
surely give the tenth unto thee and
01:58:54
that's a pretty good place to stop so
01:58:58
now I'll just conclude so you have this
01:59:04
very morally ambivalent character right
01:59:07
who's so far pretty much everything he's
01:59:09
done that we're familiar with is not
01:59:12
good so he's he's betrayed his brother
01:59:14
horribly twice badly enough so that he
01:59:17
his brother wants to kill him and
01:59:18
everyone can kind of sympathize with his
01:59:21
brother so and then he runs away
01:59:23
essentially because his mother tells him
01:59:26
to which is not exactly a testament to
01:59:28
his character and despite that strangely
01:59:32
enough he has this experience you know
01:59:35
and that's heartening I guess and that's
01:59:38
the point is that people are predisposed
01:59:42
to terrible error there's no doubt about
01:59:45
that and yet when I was writing my
01:59:50
latest book I had a friend of mine
01:59:52
Norman Doidge wrote the foreword and
01:59:55
Norma's written a couple of great books
01:59:57
and he's Jewish and he read some of what
02:00:01
I'd written and he took me to task for
02:00:03
making the god of the Old Testament you
02:00:06
know from a Christian perspective too
02:00:08
harsh and unforgiving and I rewrote a
02:00:12
fair bit of it because of his criticism
02:00:14
and because of what I've learned doing
02:00:15
these lectures it's like it's not
02:00:17
exactly right you know I mean what
02:00:19
happens in the Old Testament is if you
02:00:21
screw up especially if you know you do
02:00:23
and you decide that you're not going to
02:00:25
do anything about it so it's conscious
02:00:26
and deliberate then like look the hell
02:00:29
out you are in serious trouble and I
02:00:31
actually think that's also
02:00:33
psychologically accurate one of the
02:00:34
things young pointed out and this always
02:00:36
struck me was that if you don't know
02:00:39
what you're doing this is actually in
02:00:40
the Gospel of Thomas as well
02:00:41
interestingly enough as one of the
02:00:43
caustic Gospels Christ tells his
02:00:45
followers something like if you make a
02:00:47
mistake and you don't know what you're
02:00:48
doing then you'll be forgiven for it but
02:00:51
if you make a mistake knowing what
02:00:52
you're doing and you do it anyways then
02:00:55
like good luck to you
02:00:57
and and and I think that's I think
02:01:00
that's that's psychologically accurate I
02:01:03
mean one of the things that's very
02:01:10
interesting about the judgmental God in
02:01:12
the Old Testament however is that he can
02:01:15
be bargained with and even if you make
02:01:17
mistakes especially if you're
02:01:20
unconscious of them if you haven't
02:01:21
learned yet let's say then you always
02:01:25
have the opportunity to return to the
02:01:26
proper path and that's people get
02:01:29
cynical about that because there's no
02:01:30
this mostly Christian idea that you
02:01:33
could live a terribly sinful life but if
02:01:34
you repented on your deathbed it's like
02:01:36
heaven for you and it's like oh that's
02:01:38
that sounds like a great deal right it's
02:01:40
like you can do whatever the hell you
02:01:41
want until just before you die of course
02:01:44
you might not know when that is so
02:01:45
that's a problem you then you can just
02:01:47
say well I'm sorry and you know
02:01:48
everything's forgiven but the problem
02:01:50
with being cynical about that sort of
02:01:51
thing is that it's no trivial matter to
02:01:53
repent you know because to repent means
02:01:57
a figure out what you actually did and
02:01:59
the worst things that you did the more
02:02:02
horrible it is to figure it out it's no
02:02:05
joke right and there's no genuine
02:02:07
repentance without understanding of the
02:02:09
depth of your depravity and so if you
02:02:13
lived a particularly reprehensible life
02:02:15
and you come to understand it I think
02:02:18
that in and of itself could kill you you
02:02:20
know it's a terrible thing to wake up
02:02:23
and see what you've done if what you've
02:02:25
done is truly terrible so there's no
02:02:30
easy out it's not an easy out it's it's
02:02:32
just pure cynicism to associate that
02:02:34
idea with with an easy oh it's not but
02:02:37
there is that positive idea that it's
02:02:40
continually represented is that the
02:02:42
individual is the source of moral choice
02:02:45
and the individual is prone to genuine
02:02:50
error and temptation in a believable and
02:02:53
realistic way but that that doesn't
02:02:55
sever the relationship between the
02:02:57
individual and the divine and the
02:02:59
possibility of further growth and then I
02:03:02
would say well thank God for that
02:03:03
because without that like who would have
02:03:05
a chance right who would have a chance
02:03:07
and so the idea that
02:03:11
the daddy has presented the infinite
02:03:13
let's say as presented in the Old
02:03:14
Testament is merely judgmental is
02:03:16
definitely wrong and and is in fact
02:03:18
something that you can contend with and
02:03:21
Argan with oh I'll close with one thing
02:03:23
one of the things that I learned that
02:03:25
while I was going through this was the
02:03:27
meaning of the name Israel because Jacob
02:03:29
eventually gets named Israel and and I'm
02:03:32
jumping ahead a little bit to the next
02:03:34
lecture but Israel and so he's also the
02:03:37
father of Israel and the father of the
02:03:39
twelve sons who make up the twelve
02:03:41
tribes of Israel
02:03:42
but what Israel means is he who
02:03:44
struggles with God and that's such an
02:03:47
interesting idea because it's again a
02:03:49
psychological idea and that's why I said
02:03:52
earlier that it isn't obvious in the Old
02:03:53
Testament what it means to believe in
02:03:55
God because what Jacob does is struggle
02:03:57
with God and I think that that's a
02:03:59
really good characterization of an
02:04:01
ethical life because if you're trying to
02:04:04
lead an ethical life that's what you're
02:04:05
doing is you're struggling like blind
02:04:08
belief isn't helpful because you don't
02:04:10
know what you're believing in like it's
02:04:11
just not that helpful but if you're
02:04:14
possessed by by the desire to orient
02:04:17
yourself properly but also confused by
02:04:19
the by the existential structure of the
02:04:22
world which we all are then then what
02:04:24
you're doing when you're trying to
02:04:25
orient yourself properly in life is
02:04:27
struggling ethically and Jacob actually
02:04:30
gets quite hurt he wrestles with God
02:04:32
literally and God dislocates his his his
02:04:35
thigh and so you know the idea there is
02:04:38
watch the hell out right the thing that
02:04:40
you're contending with is powerful
02:04:43
although you can contend with it that's
02:04:45
the thing that's so interesting but you
02:04:46
know you do it at some genuine peril
02:04:48
which i think is exactly right but the
02:04:51
idea that Israel so there's Israel the
02:04:53
state let's say it Israel the promised
02:04:55
land and all of that but there's this
02:04:56
more important idea which is again a
02:04:58
psychological idea which is the State of
02:05:00
Israel which is the promised land is the
02:05:03
state that everyone who wrestles with
02:05:05
God exists in and that's not happy naive
02:05:12
belief in you know an eternally blessed
02:05:16
afterlife it's not that it's not a wish
02:05:18
fulfillment it's it's it's to be
02:05:20
actively engaged in life in the
02:05:23
difficulties of life
02:05:24
right and trying to find the path
02:05:26
because that's what wrestling with God
02:05:29
is is trying to find the path and that
02:05:32
seems to me what belief means
02:05:34
fundamentally in the Old Testament
02:05:35
perhaps in the New Testament as well is
02:05:38
that belief is expressed in trying to
02:05:41
find the path and that's an ethical
02:05:43
struggle and it's a real struggle it's
02:05:45
the struggle of life so as long as
02:05:46
you're willing to engage in that
02:05:48
struggle then hypothetically you have
02:05:51
the divine behind you and so I believe
02:05:57
that I think that's true because the
02:06:00
other thing I see is that the people who
02:06:02
set things right
02:06:04
so that yeah the the horrible forces of
02:06:09
cosmic destruction don't do us in the
02:06:11
people who are trying to set things
02:06:13
right are the ones that are struggling
02:06:14
ethically and so and that there is a
02:06:17
redemptive element to that and I don't
02:06:20
think there's any way of being cynical
02:06:21
about that so well so thank you will
02:06:27
[Applause]
02:06:50
so remember to speak right into the mic
02:06:53
because there are all these other people
02:06:54
watching that will hear it will hear us
02:06:57
so okay
02:07:00
hi dr. Peterson so with the story of
02:07:03
Jacob today there was a theme of
02:07:04
betrayal and you can see that from the
02:07:06
beginning because he was very angry and
02:07:07
jealous at his brother
02:07:08
I was thinking are there new stories or
02:07:11
we can say about betrayal that does come
02:07:13
from a loved one right where it's not
02:07:15
from a place of so black and white of
02:07:17
anger resentment and bitter and how do
02:07:19
the parties kind of recover from that or
02:07:23
is there any way to redeem that or is it
02:07:25
as black and white as if you betray
02:07:26
someone then there it's like Jacob where
02:07:29
hatred no and in fact in this story it's
02:07:33
not black and white because we know
02:07:35
we're only halfway through it and one of
02:07:38
the things I've noticed as a clinician
02:07:40
let's say is that and as an observer of
02:07:43
people in general is that I've never
02:07:45
ever seen anyone get away with anything
02:07:47
and Jacob doesn't get away with any of
02:07:50
this and so you know he's humbled by his
02:07:55
eventual experiences and he learns that
02:07:58
he did it wrong and there's
02:08:00
reconciliation that happens throughout
02:08:02
the story of Jacob so and there's minor
02:08:05
betrayals and major betrayals you know
02:08:07
that some of them have tremendously
02:08:09
serious consequences and some of them
02:08:11
have lesser consequences but there is an
02:08:13
underlying idea that things can still be
02:08:15
set right even though it's well I think
02:08:19
it takes Jacob some 20 years something
02:08:22
like that to set things right and even then it's
02:08:25
like touch and go so if I answer your
02:08:28
question okay yeah hey you speak
02:08:34
frequently in your lectures about I
02:08:37
guess the war between good and evil or
02:08:39
the struggle of life really is a
02:08:41
struggle between good and evil being at
02:08:43
the core of a conscious lived existence
02:08:46
and I guess on that note if you were
02:08:53
100% certain that there was no afterlife
02:08:57
would you still
02:08:58
be able to preach that there's a
02:09:00
positive meaning in life if you were a
02:09:03
hundred percent certain some atheists
02:09:05
seem to be 100 percent certain and yet
02:09:07
they still preach that there's some
02:09:09
positive meaning to life would you be
02:09:11
one of those or would you turn into Cain
02:09:13
you know so cynical I think that well as
02:09:17
far as I'm concerned one of the things I
02:09:19
learned from studying 20th century
02:09:22
history is that like even if the idea
02:09:24
that even if you take the most cynical
02:09:26
of ideas let's say that life is
02:09:29
irredeemable suffering and and perhaps
02:09:31
isn't even justified because of that it
02:09:35
still seems to me that you have an
02:09:38
ethical duty let's say to live in a
02:09:41
manner that reduces that to the degree
02:09:43
part that that's possible and so and I
02:09:47
think that that can be experienced as
02:09:49
meaningful in some sense independently
02:09:51
of the transcendent context now I don't
02:09:53
exactly know how to strip off the
02:09:55
transcendent context because one of the
02:09:58
things I would say that's happened to me
02:09:59
is because I've spent so much time
02:10:01
looking at the horrible things that
02:10:02
people have done is that it's like Jung
02:10:05
said that he when this is one of his
02:10:07
famous quotes he said no tree can reach
02:10:10
up to heaven unless its roots reach down
02:10:12
to hell and so as I've dug deeper into
02:10:15
the depravity of human beings my sense
02:10:19
of the possibility of human beings has
02:10:21
also grown what would you say in
02:10:25
proportion and until I've become
02:10:28
convinced actually that good is a more
02:10:30
powerful force than evil even though
02:10:32
evil is an unbelievably powerful force
02:10:34
and so I can't really strip the
02:10:36
transcendent away now whether what
02:10:38
bearing that has on eternity say on an
02:10:40
afterlife i mean i i i I can't say
02:10:44
anything about that the only thing I
02:10:46
guess I can say is that there are many
02:10:48
things about being that we don't
02:10:50
understand in the least and we don't
02:10:53
understand the nature of consciousness
02:10:54
or the nature of time so I I'm not I
02:10:58
wouldn't despair about that but yes I
02:11:00
think that life can still be meaningful
02:11:02
without without there being a necessity
02:11:05
of an afterlife
02:11:10
no no no no hi dr. Pederson
02:11:19
so since studying your work one of the
02:11:21
things that I found most fascinating is
02:11:23
your analysis of the story of Cain and
02:11:26
Abel and my question is if if Cain got
02:11:33
to the point that he did right before
02:11:37
killing his brother murdering his ideal
02:11:39
and decided that that was something he
02:11:42
didn't want to do what advice or
02:11:45
guidance would you would you give a
02:11:47
person that got to that point
02:11:52
well there's a story I read called the
02:11:59
cocktail party I've mentioned this
02:12:01
before by TS Eliot and in the cocktail
02:12:04
party there's a scene it's a play where
02:12:06
this woman approaches a psychiatrist and
02:12:09
and starts talking to him about her
02:12:10
problems and she says something that
02:12:13
surprises him she says I hope that I'm
02:12:15
the problem he says well why would you
02:12:18
hope that and she says well I thought
02:12:20
about it a lot and if the world is the
02:12:22
problem then I'm done because I can't
02:12:24
change the world but if I'm the problem
02:12:26
then maybe there's something about
02:12:27
myself I can change and I can undo this
02:12:30
terrible situation that I'm in and so I
02:12:33
would say that's repentance
02:12:35
fundamentally it's like there if and I
02:12:39
say this carefully because I understand
02:12:41
that people are susceptible to bad
02:12:45
fortune sin and ignorance can make that
02:12:50
worse but independently of that like
02:12:52
good people suffer make no mistake about
02:12:55
it but if things aren't right for you if
02:13:01
you're resentful about being because
02:13:04
that's the right way of because that's
02:13:06
the deepest way of thinking about if you
02:13:08
read the writings of the people who do
02:13:10
the mass killings for example that's
02:13:12
what you see over and over it's cain
02:13:13
it's like they're angry beyond
02:13:16
comprehension at the in tolerability of
02:13:19
being and they're angry at God
02:13:22
even if they don't say it exactly like
02:13:23
that they come so close to saying it
02:13:25
like that that it's there's no
02:13:27
difference you know what God says to
02:13:31
Cain is look to yourself first before
02:13:33
you criticize being and that strikes me
02:13:38
as right it's because to not do that is
02:13:41
arrogant beyond belief that's satanic
02:13:43
arrogance literally if something like
02:13:45
that can be literal it's like don't make
02:13:48
yourself the judge of being before you
02:13:50
clean up your your room let's say and
02:13:56
because the other thing to it this is
02:13:58
something I learned in some part from
02:13:59
Solzhenitsyn when he was in the prison
02:14:01
camps and trying to understand how these
02:14:03
heroic people he saw could possibly
02:14:05
manage it one of the exercises he
02:14:07
undertook and he really viewed this
02:14:08
within a Christian Orthodox context of
02:14:11
repentance and redemption is he said he
02:14:13
went over his life with a fine-tooth
02:14:15
comb and tried to imagine all of the
02:14:19
ethical mistakes he made in his entire
02:14:22
life that he knew were mistakes it was
02:14:25
it was this was the soul searched not he
02:14:28
wasn't relying on external standards of
02:14:30
morality except insofar as we're
02:14:32
inevitably influenced by those and then
02:14:34
his idea was is there something I could
02:14:36
do right now to put that right and
02:14:39
that's the right question like if things
02:14:41
aren't going your way and I think that
02:14:44
means that you're resentful and arrogant
02:14:46
and deceitful those are the three things
02:14:48
that clump together I think that
02:14:50
constitute the core of evil it's
02:14:52
something like that and so if you're
02:14:54
possessed by that which is a hell then
02:14:58
its repentance that's the right answer
02:15:00
and what that means is you have to
02:15:02
figure out what you did wrong and you
02:15:04
have to pay for it and then at least you
02:15:07
could think well look I can try that
02:15:08
with all of my soul let's say and see
02:15:11
what happens right it can at least be an
02:15:14
experiment and then I would also say
02:15:15
that that's an act of faith it's an act
02:15:17
of faith to conduct that experiment
02:15:19
because you put yourself on the line
02:15:21
right and that's what an active faith is
02:15:23
you don't know the outcome but you don't
02:15:24
know the outcome of your life so live in
02:15:27
some sense is an act of faith you're
02:15:29
putting faith in something that that's
02:15:31
why you're moving forward you couldn't
02:15:32
move forward without an act of faith you
02:15:34
know and people say well I own
02:15:36
move forward on the basis of the facts
02:15:38
it's like yeah but you select the facts
02:15:40
and there's an infinity of facts and
02:15:42
they don't just tell you what to do so
02:15:43
it's not a credible answer so if you're
02:15:47
in that situation it's like look to
02:15:51
yourself you know and one of the things
02:15:53
about Solzhenitsyn that's so bloody
02:15:55
amazing is that's what he did and then
02:15:57
he wrote the Gulag Archipelago and you
02:15:59
know he took an axe to the intellectual
02:16:01
and moral substructure of of the
02:16:03
totalitarian communist states so while
02:16:06
he was redeeming himself let's say he
02:16:09
was simultaneously redeeming the world
02:16:11
and you know you see something like that
02:16:14
like you you gotta wake up man that's
02:16:16
that was really something so yeah dr.
02:16:29
Peterson I have a lot of questions that
02:16:30
arise from your comments at the Bell for
02:16:32
one hundred event your m103 video your
02:16:34
recent discussion with ayaan Hirsi Ali
02:16:36
and your comments on Islam in the West
02:16:38
in general and in your comments there's
02:16:40
this common theme that one of these
02:16:42
things is not like the other you put the
02:16:43
judeo-christian tradition on the one
02:16:45
side and Islam on the other specifically
02:16:48
the quote complex problem of Islam in
02:16:50
the quote as a quote totalizing system
02:16:52
and before I go further let me state
02:16:54
that if hypothetically a final analysis
02:16:57
of Islam resulted in as total of
02:16:58
denunciation as your analysis of
02:17:00
post-modernism or near Marxism I
02:17:02
wouldn't be personally offended at all
02:17:03
this isn't a a personal question in your
02:17:06
recent interview with ayaan Hirsi Ali
02:17:08
she said Western values are superior to
02:17:10
Islamic law and Islamic values I agree
02:17:13
with that basically certainly in the context of
02:17:15
let's say current global affairs I'll
02:17:17
skip the quotes from a recent magazine
02:17:18
interview but you should read them
02:17:20
because hers is a worldview which is
02:17:22
very much the West versus Islam not
02:17:24
radical Islam but Islam including
02:17:26
necessarily the military option so my
02:17:29
question is at the level of
02:17:30
psychological significance of these
02:17:31
stories at the level of mythology and
02:17:33
archetype how is Islam so different from
02:17:35
the Jo Christian tradition you know
02:17:37
because Adam Adam Eve of Shaitaan
02:17:39
Shaitaan so on and so forth everything
02:17:41
from the fault of the flood a lot of
02:17:44
what you've discussed in this lecture
02:17:45
series is necessarily part of Islam as
02:17:46
well and in fact I think one of the
02:17:48
strongest criticism of Islam
02:17:50
that it's perhaps pretty unoriginal you
02:17:52
know tonight you said that the moral
02:17:54
presuppositions of a culture are
02:17:56
instantiated in its stories I see a lot
02:17:58
of the same stories so current global
02:18:00
affairs aside I'm asking at the deepest
02:18:02
levels how different are these stories
02:18:04
in the morals presuppositions ok well
02:18:07
that's that's a killer question well ok
02:18:12
so the first thing I would say is
02:18:14
fundamentally I don't know and so part
02:18:18
of the reason that I'm one of the things
02:18:20
I'm planning to do is to have a series
02:18:22
of discussions and plenty of people have
02:18:24
contacted me about discussing with ayaan
02:18:27
Hirsi Ali as you know she has powerful
02:18:30
and serious folks and they're not happy
02:18:35
with her black and white distinction and
02:18:39
so now I read infidel and I really liked
02:18:43
that book like I my sense was that she
02:18:45
she was a heroine now what that means in
02:18:49
relationship to Islam that's a different
02:18:51
story because she came out of a like a
02:18:55
totalitarian let's say family structure
02:18:58
in a relatively totalitarian society and
02:19:01
you could make the case that there's a
02:19:04
correspondence between that and his
02:19:06
lemon you could make the case that there
02:19:07
isn't and and of course that's the
02:19:09
critical issue and so there's a couple
02:19:13
of things that I can't wrap my head
02:19:15
around with we have wrap my head around
02:19:18
easily in relationship to Islam and so
02:19:21
one is what I see as the failure to
02:19:24
separate church from state and that's a
02:19:27
problem now it may not be a problem as
02:19:32
such but it's certainly a problem in
02:19:34
relationship to the relation between
02:19:36
Islam and the West because we separate
02:19:38
church from state
02:19:39
now there's fundamentalists in the
02:19:41
United States Christian fundamentalists
02:19:43
who think that that separation is a
02:19:45
mistake so it's not only it's not only
02:19:50
an idea that's rooted in Islam that
02:19:51
those should be United but it's
02:19:54
definitely a problem with regards to our
02:19:56
coexistence because that's a
02:19:57
fundamentally different presumption okay
02:20:00
so that's problem number one problem
02:20:03
number two for me and again this may be a
02:20:05
consequence of my ignorance which I'm
02:20:07
trying to rectify Muhammad was a warlord
02:20:11
and I I don't know what to do about that
02:20:15
fact like one thing you can say about
02:20:18
Christ hypothetically let's say I'm not
02:20:22
talking about a historical reality
02:20:24
necessarily although I'm not denying it
02:20:27
either is that of all the things he was
02:20:30
warlord was definitely not one of them
02:20:33
and I don't know what to do about that
02:20:36
and so I don't know how to reconcile
02:20:40
that and I don't know how to reconcile
02:20:43
like not only was Muhammad a warlord
02:20:47
which I don't think is an unreasonable
02:20:49
thing to proclaim the expansion that he
02:20:55
initiated was unbelievably successful I
02:21:00
mean within six hundred years it was the
02:21:02
biggest empire of the world had ever
02:21:04
seen and a demolished Byzantine
02:21:06
Christianity which is something that
02:21:08
Western people don't even know you know
02:21:11
I've read thinkers who said that the
02:21:13
West was so traumatized culturally let's
02:21:16
say by the demolition of Byzantine
02:21:18
Christianity that we can't even study it
02:21:20
now and so I don't know if that's true
02:21:24
but I don't know that it's not true
02:21:26
either
02:21:27
and the Buddhists were wiped out of
02:21:30
Afghanistan and we saw that echoed in
02:21:33
talibans destruction of those great
02:21:35
Buddhist monuments and so so what I'm
02:21:41
hoping is that there's a bridge there
02:21:46
better be a bridge and that's why I want
02:21:49
to have these discussions because I'd
02:21:51
like to understand if there's a bridge
02:21:53
and so lots of people have sent me
02:21:56
people who I should talk to who who they
02:21:58
think represent Islam far better than
02:22:00
ayaan Hirsi Ali and perhaps they're
02:22:02
correct and hopefully I'll get an
02:22:04
opportunity to talk to them because I
02:22:06
would like to know why I would like to
02:22:08
know if what I think is wrong because if
02:22:12
it's wrong it's important that I know
02:22:13
it's wrong but
02:22:16
at the moment I don't a I don't know
02:22:19
it's wrong and B I don't see I'm not
02:22:27
sure what it signifies so and I don't
02:22:31
think anyone is sure right because we
02:22:33
have this entangled entangling of the
02:22:37
civilizations you know when there's
02:22:39
other things too like I'm not very happy
02:22:42
with the Saudi Arabs and the Wahabis I
02:22:45
don't think they're our allies I don't
02:22:49
see how any Western woman can possibly
02:22:51
think that they're our allies and I'm
02:22:54
not happy with the fact that the petrol
02:22:55
dollars that we send them are
02:22:57
transformed in substantial part into the
02:23:01
kind of propaganda that's definitely a
02:23:04
threat to the West and I'm not very
02:23:07
happy with the fact that our politicians
02:23:09
appear stupidly blind to that now that
02:23:13
may again be a consequence of my
02:23:15
ignorance it's certainly possible but
02:23:17
those are the sorts of things that that
02:23:22
I can't reconcile and so you know I've
02:23:29
seen that I've also seen parallels
02:23:31
between the ideas that I'm presenting
02:23:33
here and other religious traditions
02:23:35
Taoism and Buddhism Hinduism it's harder
02:23:40
for me to bridge the gap with Islam and
02:23:41
I'm not sure why that is I think it has
02:23:44
something to do with the things that I
02:23:45
just laid out now what I don't know
02:23:48
about Islam would feel very many volumes
02:23:50
many of which I have sitting on my
02:23:52
shelves at home right now because I want
02:23:54
to do the reading you know as I progress
02:23:56
through this but
02:24:09
good evening dr. Pearson thanks for
02:24:12
continuing this series even as atheists
02:24:15
appreciate the interaction and the the
02:24:19
conversation I wanted to ask you
02:24:22
something that is both emotional and
02:24:25
analytical because oftentimes you're
02:24:28
basically pegged as seeing things very
02:24:33
analytically so you were talking earlier
02:24:35
about you were talking about the the the
02:24:41
juxtaposition between happiness and
02:24:45
honor even though I don't think they're
02:24:48
mutually exclusive personally but if
02:24:51
there's a situation let's say where
02:24:53
someone is truly in love with someone
02:24:56
else and they love them for many years
02:24:57
and decades they have a whole history
02:25:00
together and then someone and then one
02:25:03
of the people in this grouping start
02:25:08
falling in love with someone else so
02:25:10
it's not that there's less love for the
02:25:14
original partner how analytically and
02:25:18
emotionally do you take care of a
02:25:21
situation like that when you feel that
02:25:24
you want to stay honorable and be happy
02:25:27
okay so the first thing I would say is
02:25:30
the devil is always in the details right
02:25:32
so one of the things that I'm not happy
02:25:36
about with much modern moral theorizing
02:25:40
is that it takes a story like that you
02:25:43
know and then tries to extract out a
02:25:45
general moral principle and often that's
02:25:48
impossible because the particulars of
02:25:50
the situation are very important but
02:25:53
having said that all right so let me
02:25:56
think about that for a minute I'm not
02:25:59
sure that it's possible to be honorable
02:26:01
in a situation like that because I think
02:26:02
that you've acted out the violation
02:26:05
already and having acted out the
02:26:08
violation to confess it might be the
02:26:11
right thing to do although perhaps not
02:26:13
you know because if you it isn't obvious
02:26:16
to me that if you betray someone then
02:26:18
you get to have the right to tell them
02:26:19
about it I know I know you're not
02:26:23
yeah yeah I understand I understand my
02:26:31
observation has been that if there's a
02:26:34
tight relationship and if one party is
02:26:36
betrayed by the other in that matter
02:26:37
that it's almost always irreconcilable
02:26:40
it breaks it and you know I've helped
02:26:45
people try to struggle through that but
02:26:47
on both sides of it the person who was
02:26:49
betrayed and the person who did the
02:26:51
betrayal
02:26:52
I've seen people grow up and not do it
02:26:55
again and this was in situations where
02:26:57
their partner didn't know and in a
02:26:59
couple of those situations it seemed to
02:27:01
me that it might have even been a
02:27:03
necessary learning experience for the
02:27:05
person who did it you know it it helped
02:27:08
them develop and that doesn't mean I'm
02:27:11
justifying it but life is complicated
02:27:14
but but I think that society works
02:27:20
better all things considered when you
02:27:23
make a promise and you stick to it and
02:27:25
one of the things I learned from reading
02:27:28
young which which I really liked was you
02:27:32
know he believed that and he had his
02:27:35
affairs too so you might think about it
02:27:37
as somewhat hypocritical but but I think
02:27:40
that people can make mistakes without
02:27:42
having what they think necessarily be
02:27:44
wrong you know he said that there are
02:27:46
things in a marriage that you can't have
02:27:49
unless you're all-in and I believe that
02:27:52
I believe that and so if there's a back
02:27:54
door open or though like to begin with
02:27:57
or a back door opens then I think that
02:27:59
there's something about the relationship
02:28:00
that is lacking at least and I think you
02:28:04
pay a big price for that so I mean it
02:28:07
depends on whether you regard a marriage
02:28:09
as a practical arrangement or a
02:28:12
spiritual arrangement now really it's
02:28:14
both you know and both are important but
02:28:18
if it's a spiritual arrangement or a
02:28:19
psychological arrangement above all then
02:28:22
I do think that you don't get the
02:28:26
transformation without being all-in and
02:28:28
if you violate it then even if you can
02:28:30
work it out with your partner there's
02:28:32
something that you will never get as a
02:28:35
consequence
02:28:36
so
02:28:40
[Applause]
02:28:44
last question okay I hope I'll make this
02:28:47
good thanks also for a continuing the
02:28:50
lecture series I haven't listened to all
02:28:53
of the lectures but it seems like you
02:28:54
focus very much on the appeal of the
02:28:58
bible-- of stories to the individual
02:28:59
psychology you have any thoughts on the
02:29:02
relative importance of crowd psychology
02:29:03
to the appeal and staying power of the
02:29:06
bible and also the the reason why the
02:29:09
Bible or the biblical stories took
02:29:11
precedence over other ideologies which
02:29:14
could have taken its place okay well
02:29:17
let's go to the second one first I think
02:29:25
it's the same thing that happens when
02:29:28
someone both creates and edits a great
02:29:32
movie it's no one knows like imagine how
02:29:37
many choices are there in a great movie
02:29:39
let's say it's an animated movie because
02:29:40
absolutely everything in an animated
02:29:42
movie is constructed everything there's
02:29:44
God only knows how many choices like
02:29:47
maybe there's millions of choices you
02:29:49
know and each choice is guided by some
02:29:53
intuition of narrative suitability or
02:29:56
beauty or there's some higher ideal
02:29:58
motivating it right the desire to
02:30:01
produce a masterpiece maybe that's it
02:30:03
that was certainly the case with the
02:30:04
Disney movies for example and so that
02:30:06
that aspiration then then makes the
02:30:11
decisions and so I would say well
02:30:14
something like that guided the writing
02:30:16
and the selection of the stories in in
02:30:19
the biblical canon now could have there
02:30:23
been other stories included well the
02:30:25
Catholics and the Protestants don't have
02:30:26
the same biblical tradition and neither
02:30:28
do the Jews and the Christians and so it
02:30:30
isn't exactly clear what to make of that
02:30:33
you know I mean that's akin in some
02:30:35
sense to the discussion we just had
02:30:37
about Islam and Christianity in some
02:30:43
sense I've left that aside that specific
02:30:46
question except insofar as I've just
02:30:48
answered because I'm trying to take what
02:30:51
we have which I know is that their route
02:30:53
of our culture and to figure out what it
02:30:55
is that we have
02:30:56
why it is that we have it well I've made
02:31:01
some attempt to explain that in the
02:31:03
manner that I just described but I don't
02:31:05
have a final answer I could it have been
02:31:07
different it could have been different
02:31:12
at some levels but the same at others
02:31:14
you know I mean one of the things it's
02:31:16
the scholars of comparative religion who
02:31:19
haven't been infected fatally with
02:31:21
post-modernism have definitely realized
02:31:23
so young for example in Le ah de people
02:31:26
who are interested in grand narratives
02:31:28
one of the things they pointed out quite
02:31:30
clearly is that there's there's there's
02:31:32
a set of common mythological themes
02:31:35
across many cultures and I tried to
02:31:37
outline that in maps of meaning and that
02:31:39
worked out quite nicely for me at least
02:31:41
as far as I was concerned because once I
02:31:43
had the basic archetypal structure
02:31:44
mapped out it opened up all sorts of
02:31:46
stories to me from all sorts of
02:31:47
different cultures and that's been
02:31:49
unbelievably useful like the
02:31:51
Mesopotamian story of it the Anu mulisch
02:31:54
when I figured out what that meant as
02:31:56
far as I was concerned like I've never
02:31:57
forgotten that it just seared itself
02:32:00
into my memory and the same with the
02:32:02
Egyptian stories and you know some
02:32:04
Buddhist writings that I've read in some
02:32:06
the daodejing is also very powerful so I
02:32:09
think that things can be different on
02:32:11
one level and the same at another but
02:32:14
that humanity kind of coalesce is on
02:32:16
what's the same over a reasonable period
02:32:18
of time because there isn't that many
02:32:20
ways that human beings can live properly
02:32:23
as individuals and as groups together
02:32:25
and so there's this constant force that
02:32:28
makes our ethical presuppositions
02:32:31
converge and then that's automatically
02:32:33
expressed in the stories it's something
02:32:35
like that now it's an imperfect process
02:32:37
and it's full of error so
02:32:48
so just one announcement well two
02:32:53
announcements the next lecture I believe
02:32:55
is November 14th so I'll hopefully
02:32:56
finish off the story of Jacob looks like
02:32:59
it and then I'm also appearing on a
02:33:02
panel with God's odd and or an Amity on
02:33:05
November 11th and there's still quite a
02:33:08
few tickets available for that so if
02:33:10
you're interested you could go to my
02:33:11
website and pick up those tickets huh it
02:33:13
should be well hopefully it'll be
02:33:15
interesting I think it will be and might
02:33:18
be too interesting that's one
02:33:20
possibility so we'll see but I'm gonna
02:33:24
do two more of these this year and I
02:33:26
hope I get through the story of Joseph
02:33:28
and then I can start in the New Year
02:33:30
with it with Exodus and that's a story
02:33:32
that I know quite well and that the
02:33:34
Exodus and Leviticus and what's the one
02:33:36
after that yes thank you so I'm very
02:33:40
much looking forward to that because
02:33:41
that is one killer story that so and
02:33:44
I've got some surprises for that as well
02:33:46
so anyways thank you very much for
02:33:49
coming and hopefully we'll see you
02:33:51
November 14th

Description:

Watch Exodus available exclusively on DailyWire+: https://www.dailywire.com/show/exodus?cid=exodus&mid=na&xid=0 The Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories starts up after a two month hiatus with the first half of the story of Jacob, the founder of Israel ("those who wrestle with God"), the man who robs his brother of his birthright, is deceived into marrying the wrong woman, and dreams of a stairway to heaven, in the ancient Shamanic tradition. Producer Credit and thanks to the following $200/month Patreon supporters. Without such support, this series would not have happened: Mike Hodges, Nick Swenson, Nathaniel Snyder, Nolan Watson, Michael M, Ahmad Alnatour, The Renegade of Funk, Levi Grandt, Nicole Weiss, David Morris Burns, Maciej Bembnista, Mauricio Morales Sanchez, Fabio Sousa, Kelly Rentzel, Roshan Punnen, Zachary Vader, Heather Drieling, TheArchangel911, Doug Deeper, Christopher Hostland, Secret Cow, Lynn Holland, Kyle Fowler, Luke Mortenson, Mark Hoad, Fabian Schuler, Eric Pirog, Khalil Choudhry, Sarah Lee South, Justin Lapollo, Benjamin Cracknell, Dan Gaylinn, Badr El Amari, GeorgeB, Ryan Kane, Enrico Leiaru, Craig Morrison, David Tien, Keith Jones, Kevin Van Eekeren, John Woolley, Julie Byrne, Srdan Pavlovic, Kevin Fallon, Sabish Balan, Chad Grills, Johnny VInje, Joel Kurth, Daren Connel, Kristina Ripka, Sean C, Jesse Michalak, James Bradley, David Johnson, Damian Fink, Brian Cartmell, Jan Suchanek, Matt Sattler, Louise Parberry, Chris Martakis, Linda Ashar, Jason Ferenc, Mayor Berkowitz, Patricia Newman, Ben Baker, George Diaz, Soheil Daftarian, Christopher Ballew, Kevin Patrick McSurdy, Trey McLemore, Safa Maiwand, DDS, Scott Carter, Robin Otto, Arden Armstrong, James N. Daniel, III, Trick --- SUPPORT THIS CHANNEL --- Direct Support: https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/donate Merchandise: https://teespring.com/stores/jordanbpeterson --- BOOKS --- 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos: https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/12-rules-for-life/ Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief: https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/maps-of-meaning/ --- LINKS --- Website: https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/ 12 Rules for Life Tour: https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/events/ Blog: https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/blog/ Podcast: https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/podcast/ Reading List: https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/great-books/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson Instagram: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser --- PRODUCTS --- Personality Course: https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/personality Self Authoring Suite: https://selfauthoring.com/ Understand Myself personality test: https://understandmyself.com/ Merchandise: https://teespring.com/stores/jordanbpeterson

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