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yubikey
hack
security
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00:00:00
UB Keys have been hacked the point of
00:00:02
the key is that like it's like on your
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keychain and it's actually kind of hard
00:00:07
to somebody's keychain out of their
00:00:09
pocket does anybody know how much it
00:00:11
costs like is for a UB key I don't know
00:00:13
if people know what is the process if
00:00:14
you lose your UB key I would have to say
00:00:17
that this has actually happened to me
00:00:18
this is why I know about uh the phone
00:00:20
number hijacking thing is it happened to
00:00:22
me like randomly for the average person
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it's better to have that second Factor
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than not I do really want to stress this
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point though that no matter what second
00:00:32
Factor you use it is always more secure
00:00:36
than just a single Factor oh and if you
00:00:39
do that make sure it's not your cat's
00:00:40
name hello how the tech are you this is
00:00:43
our weekly Tech show Mostly week weekly
00:00:46
Tech show on Echoplex media we talk
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about tech news science news and what
00:00:50
other any other Tech and science stuff
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we feel like talking about I am
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historian Matt and my co-host will
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introduce them eles for their segments
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I'm just going to jump right in to my
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stories I've got one story it's an
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interesting one but uh it's uh basically
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the U Keys have been hacked uh if you
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don't know anything about UB Keys
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they're these little Hardware Keys
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they're they're basically like uh they
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they look like USB thumb drives but they
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don't actually hold any data on them
00:01:24
that for you know saving you're not able
00:01:26
to save data in on them anyways but
00:01:28
they're specifically for security
00:01:30
they're the most po the UB key
00:01:33
specifically the most popular form of
00:01:35
this kind of like security key uh it's
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basically a hardware token for two-
00:01:39
Factor authentication it's used on a
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number of sites that require a higher
00:01:44
level of security for when you log in so
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uh everybody knows about getting SMS
00:01:51
messages text messages on your phone for
00:01:53
a second Factor those are that's very
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insecure uh there are other apps uh that
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will give you like the the key uh it
00:02:02
does something very similar to these uh
00:02:05
UB Keys only in app form and those are
00:02:07
mostly secure but they have a little
00:02:09
they have some issues with this but
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these Hardware keys are the most secure
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form of this you know two-factor
00:02:17
authentication out there well anyways
00:02:19
what's happened is the UB key and other
00:02:22
keys that use some similar Hardware
00:02:24
contains a cryptographic flaw that can
00:02:27
allow an attacker to clone the key
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basically they're stealing the the
00:02:32
private key and creating a new key that
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can do all the same thing uh it effects
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all UB Keys running firmware version
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5.7 there is apparently uh I believe
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there's a newer version out that um can
00:02:48
that doesn't have this flaw the problem
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is UB Keys the firmware is not
00:02:52
upgradeable so these if you have these
00:02:55
older Keys you need to go and basically
00:02:58
buy a whole new key if you want to get
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around this uh issue the but it's not
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that big of a deal it's you know in the
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news because it's the only exploit out
00:03:07
there for UB key so far but the only way
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you can actually do this exploit is if
00:03:13
you have physical access to the key uh
00:03:16
so from the ad The Advisory that's out
00:03:19
for this particular flaw the attacker
00:03:21
would need physical possession of the UB
00:03:23
key security key or ubsm I don't know
00:03:27
what that is but I'm sure it's another
00:03:28
form of the key uh they would have to
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have knowledge of the accounts they want
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to Target and specialize equipment to
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perform the necessary attack depending
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on the use case the attacker may also
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require additional knowledge including
00:03:41
username pin account password or
00:03:44
authentication key so there's a lot of
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hurdles a lot of to to leap over to to
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get this exploit to actually work so
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even with this vulnerability security
00:03:55
Keys Remain the most secure form of two-
00:03:58
Factor Authentication
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what do you guys think I mean I I it's
00:04:03
not surprising that if somebody has
00:04:05
physical access to the key and your
00:04:07
password and login information to the UB
00:04:10
key website they could clone the key if
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they were sufficiently sophisticated I
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think the point of the key is that like
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it's like on your keychain and it's
00:04:17
actually kind of hard to somebody's
00:04:19
keychain out of their pocket yeah yep
00:04:23
well yeah it's like stealing an actual
00:04:24
key yeah um I do want to say though like
00:04:28
you mentioned that uh SMS two-factor
00:04:31
authentication is insecure which I'm not
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going to argue that it's it's the least
00:04:36
secure version of two-factor
00:04:38
authentication but still any form of
00:04:41
two-factor authentication is more secure
00:04:44
than having just a password I guess
00:04:47
that's fair the issue I have with the
00:04:49
SMS of text messaging basically for
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those who are uninitiated and I think
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it's probably a little more secure now
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but people uh there it's not the actual
00:04:58
SMS that's the problem it's uh that it's
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possible to basically hijack the your
00:05:05
phone number and if somebody does that
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basically Jacks your phone number U
00:05:09
moves your phone number from your phone
00:05:12
to another phone that they control now
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they can get all your your text messages
00:05:17
and so if you're doing two factor and
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that's the only way you have two-factor
00:05:20
authentication set up they can if they
00:05:23
can figure out your password they can do
00:05:25
the two- Factor authentication um that's
00:05:27
what I mean though is like if you're
00:05:28
logging in with just a password they
00:05:31
don't even need to do that so any two
00:05:34
factor is a hurdle above needing to know
00:05:36
your password well the other I think the
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the next step is some websites will
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allow you to log in basically you do a
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little social engineering with just the
00:05:47
uh the text message basically I think
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that's what some places have having a
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problem with that so you that is single
00:05:54
Factor authentication what what was that
00:05:57
that at that point that is single Factor
00:05:59
Authentication
00:06:00
that is true so I mean but the average
00:06:02
person right like you if let's let's
00:06:05
like let's say you're just too lazy to
00:06:06
install the Google app authenticator or
00:06:08
whatever like on your on your phone for
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the average person it's better to have
00:06:12
that second Factor than not because
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you're for someone so first of all
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someone that's going to do that is going
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after you specifically and they're
00:06:22
probably a fairly sophisticated actor
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and so if you're in a situation where
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that's a likelihood or like a
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possibility or likelihood like I think I
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am um I I think I'm one of those people
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where that's a thing that someone would
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very likely attempt to do to me well
00:06:39
then I should never ever use uh uh text
00:06:42
as a second Factor but my mother I mean
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come on most people my mom's age their
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password is like the name of their cat
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yeah okay well I I would have to say
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that this has actually happened to me
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this is why I know about uh the phone
00:06:55
number hijacking thing is it happened to
00:06:57
me like randomly I'd heard a little bit
00:06:59
about before him but then like one day
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uh back when I was working at Google
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like in the middle of the day I realized
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I couldn't send text messages uh but
00:07:07
basically the phone part of my phone
00:07:09
wasn't working but of course since I was
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on Wi-Fi because I was at work like
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everything else seemed to work fine so I
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didn't catch it at first but eventually
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it was just lucky I think I was tried to
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text somebody I don't normally do not
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not that often during the day and
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realized what had happened um it turns
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out they were targeting my email address
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and they they tried to they switched the
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two-factor authentication from my phone
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um I don't think I actually had
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two-factor authentication set up with my
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email that way uh at the time so it
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didn't really help them luckily they
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were trying to get in my Google email
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and Google just like shut down my email
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unfortunately I didn't have um other
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methods to recover my email set up at
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the time so I had to go through a whole
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process to get back in so I strongly
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suggest if you have Gmail make sure you
00:07:59
have other methods of two Factor
00:08:01
authentication set up on it and make
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sure you have a recovery email stuff or
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a recovery method set up uh there that's
00:08:08
not your phone again but uh it was a big
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issue at the time for so does anybody
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know how much it costs like is for a
00:08:15
Ubbi key because I mean this story being
00:08:19
what it is like who's going to does
00:08:21
anybody know like is it a monthly fee no
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it's a one time fee for the UB key and
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I'm over here uh so what they do is they
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emulate a keyboard you plug them into a
00:08:32
USB drive or a USB slot on your computer
00:08:36
and they emulate a keyboard and when you
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touch them when you physically push on
00:08:40
them they register that you're touching
00:08:42
them and they will spit out a bunch of
00:08:44
keys into uh into whatever you have uh
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focused and then at the end they'll hit
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the enter key you know they're virtually
00:08:54
hit the enter key um so a lot of times
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if you see just like a bunch bunch of
00:08:59
random characters that someone put in
00:09:02
like uh slack or a tweet or something uh
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it is possible that they accidentally
00:09:08
hit their UB key when they had like the
00:09:11
the input window focused yeah it would
00:09:14
happen a lot back at when I worked at
00:09:16
Facebook uh there would be you know we'd
00:09:19
be in slack and someone would put one of
00:09:21
their uh you know UB key things in in
00:09:24
chat accidentally by bumping their UB
00:09:27
key cuz we were required to have them in
00:09:29
our laptop and basically if you slid
00:09:31
your hand across the side of the laptop
00:09:33
they would end up spitting out one of
00:09:35
your authentication strings okay so I
00:09:38
want to get back to sort of talking
00:09:39
about authentication a little bit
00:09:41
there's basically three ways to
00:09:42
authenticate it's something you know
00:09:44
something you have and something you are
00:09:45
there are other ways but those are the
00:09:47
three I'm sure there are proba there's
00:09:49
probably other ways that people have
00:09:50
come up with so if you if you just do
00:09:52
something you know that's the weakest
00:09:54
one something you have is probably is is
00:09:57
more is stronger than something you know
00:09:59
and then something you are but it
00:10:01
probably may be tied with something you
00:10:04
have because if it's your finger and
00:10:06
then somebody is stronger than you and
00:10:08
has your
00:10:09
finger that's now something they have
00:10:12
right yeah I think it's I don't know if
00:10:14
any of them are particularly stronger
00:10:15
than the rest it's a lot has to do with
00:10:18
implementation and user because you know
00:10:20
you can have a good passord word or you
00:10:22
can have a very bad password right uh
00:10:25
but um the more of those like three
00:10:28
different methods of authentic ation
00:10:29
that you have so if you have one single
00:10:31
Factor you're not very secure but you're
00:10:34
somewhat like basic stuff it it's
00:10:36
probably fine two Factor authentication
00:10:38
is currently like the sort of the gold
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standard but of course the second factor
00:10:42
is the you know how well that's
00:10:43
implemented is uh really determines how
00:10:46
strong that is and then nobody's
00:10:49
actually doing it that I know of but
00:10:50
three Factor authentication is
00:10:52
apparently the ultimate where you have
00:10:54
one of each of those PayPal forms of
00:10:56
authentication what PayPal what you do
00:10:58
it I didn't know that
00:10:59
I didn't know anybody did it um if if
00:11:02
you want to you can set it up so you
00:11:03
have to do an authenticator in your
00:11:04
fingerprint if you want to okay um
00:11:07
interesting I don't use PayPal for
00:11:09
reasons completely unrelated I do really
00:11:11
want to stress this point though that no
00:11:14
matter what second Factor you use it is
00:11:17
always more secure than just a single
00:11:21
Factor like even if it's just like uh a
00:11:24
text or an email or something that's
00:11:27
like relatively quote easy unquote to
00:11:30
hack that's still more secure than just
00:11:32
having a password because they have to
00:11:34
know your password and then something
00:11:37
else right I know I know that um not
00:11:40
long before I moved from Campbell um the
00:11:43
I won't give out the email oh it's a
00:11:44
public email address Echo Echoplex
00:11:47
media.com someone was definitely trying
00:11:50
to get in okay um because I think they
00:11:54
they they definitely I think they got
00:11:55
the password and um I just had two
00:11:58
Factor V via uh via the SMS and they
00:12:02
were unable to get in because they
00:12:03
didn't have my phone and that whoever it
00:12:05
was was not sophisticated enough to
00:12:06
clone my phone so all things considered
00:12:08
I'm glad I had the SMS uh and um but
00:12:12
then I was then I was like well maybe I
00:12:15
should use my password manager for the
00:12:17
authenticator I'm like no now we're a
00:12:18
single Factor again aren't we because if
00:12:20
my password manager is also the
00:12:22
authenticator well somebody gets into my
00:12:24
password manager they have the they have
00:12:26
the keys to everything so yep that's why
00:12:29
when bit Warden offers to to use like a
00:12:34
like a top token or or a what's it
00:12:37
called pass keys I'm like no I don't I
00:12:39
don't want bit Wen to be my only factor
00:12:43
and by the way if you're not using a
00:12:45
password manager you absolutely should
00:12:46
be they're free all of your passwords
00:12:48
should be different for every single
00:12:50
account that you have and you shouldn't
00:12:51
even know them yeah ideally you should
00:12:54
not have knowledge of them you should
00:12:56
only have one password in your brain the
00:12:58
pass password to your password manager
00:13:01
oh and if you do that make sure it's not
00:13:02
your cat's
00:13:03
name yep make sure make sure it's
00:13:07
annoying to type it
00:13:09
in also a lot of those password managers
00:13:12
support two-factor authentication
00:13:13
including using these UB Keys uh also um
00:13:18
because you asked earlier I did look up
00:13:20
how much it costs uh the cheapest UB key
00:13:22
this is a UB key 5 is $50 it was more
00:13:25
than I expected I thought they were like
00:13:26
$20 but uh $50 buy a used don't buy a
00:13:30
used UB key I don't know um I don't know
00:13:32
what the problems might be but um that's
00:13:34
the thing is they they're probably a
00:13:36
neat and interesting ways that people
00:13:38
might be selling not used Ubbi Keys yeah
00:13:42
there's also a thing well I didn't look
00:13:45
this up but I I think in yub key if
00:13:46
you're a big business or medium business
00:13:49
maybe or at least a business that's very
00:13:51
security conscious you can buy basically
00:13:54
like the blank uh UB keys so you write
00:13:57
the keys yourself so no other company
00:14:00
has the keys ever at your own your own
00:14:03
company but uh I think they still do
00:14:05
that I I'm pretty sure they did it
00:14:07
before but uh don't take my word for it
00:14:09
if you're interested in that thing I I
00:14:11
don't know if people know what is the
00:14:12
process if you lose your UB key uh
00:14:14
you're [ __ ] no um depends on you know
00:14:19
the whatever you're using um you just
00:14:23
unregister it in your account the the
00:14:25
way the UB works is like uh there's the
00:14:28
part on the key itself which just
00:14:31
essentially does like kind of like
00:14:33
public keep
00:14:35
cryptography uh and then there's the
00:14:37
part on the the server that you know
00:14:40
you've stored your password on the
00:14:41
server and this other part of the UB key
00:14:44
and when you push on the button the UB
00:14:47
key just does a little calculation uh
00:14:50
that it has to know like the private
00:14:52
part of the part that's stored on the
00:14:53
server and then it'll spit out a bunch
00:14:56
of like gobbledygook and then send that
00:14:59
to the server and the server can verify
00:15:01
okay yes the thing that corresponds to
00:15:04
this public part that I have is the
00:15:07
private part so it's kind of like uh
00:15:10
pass keys where you have a a private key
00:15:12
and a public key and the public key is
00:15:15
stored on the server and you have to
00:15:16
sign something with your private key to
00:15:19
authenticate to the server uh it's
00:15:21
similar to that so you just deregister
00:15:24
it on the server if you lose it well the
00:15:25
problem is like how do you get onto the
00:15:27
server if you if you lost your key to
00:15:28
begin with right uh and one of the
00:15:30
things you can do social engineering is
00:15:32
you can some websites allow you to to
00:15:34
register multiple keys so you have one
00:15:37
your daily driver key and then you would
00:15:39
have another one that may keeping a safe
00:15:41
or something so like like sort of sort
00:15:43
almost like a 321 backup solution right
00:15:45
where you yes where you have one of the
00:15:47
you have the essentially you'd have the
00:15:49
password which would be the first thing
00:15:51
you'd have a UB key that's on site and
00:15:52
then maybe a UB key offsite like you
00:15:55
that you leave in a drawer at your mom's
00:15:56
house or some [ __ ] right well yeah I
00:15:58
mean you'd probably ones that you don't
00:16:00
have physical access to you know
00:16:03
immediate physical access to you
00:16:05
probably want to put in a safe somewhere
00:16:07
so maybe a safe at your mom's house but
00:16:09
well but otherwise again like how like
00:16:12
what are you a
00:16:13
spy hey I'm just saying like keep it
00:16:16
safe so ultimately uh whatever you're
00:16:20
logging into like they determine whether
00:16:23
you can authenticate so like you know if
00:16:25
I uh like Dave if you lost your password
00:16:28
to Port 87 I could let you in like I
00:16:31
could just change your password on the
00:16:32
server right but you would be
00:16:33
authenticating like if if something
00:16:35
happened you you you would not
00:16:37
authenticate me via a Discord message or
00:16:39
anything like you know what I'm saying
00:16:40
you would correct I would you would you
00:16:42
would you You' either be like you need
00:16:43
to call me from the phone you need to do
00:16:45
a video call we need to do something so
00:16:47
that I know this is actually [ __ ] you
00:16:49
but the other thing is you but you you
00:16:50
wouldn't do that but hold on you
00:16:52
wouldn't do that for other people on
00:16:53
Port 87 because they're not your friend
00:16:56
so you can't really authenticate who the
00:16:57
hell they are in the first place I would
00:17:00
do that but I would require them to send
00:17:03
me an email from the email that is
00:17:05
listed as their recovery email and then
00:17:08
include like a a picture of their
00:17:09
driver's license basically to prove that
00:17:12
they are really them so that's the way
00:17:14
Facebook does it if you lose your
00:17:15
Facebook if you lose access to your
00:17:17
Facebook account you can recover your
00:17:19
Facebook password by essentially sending
00:17:22
them your driver's license and if the
00:17:25
picture on your driver's license or the
00:17:27
uh the name on your driver's license
00:17:28
match matches the name on your Facebook
00:17:30
account then they'll let you reset your
00:17:32
password through that email that is your
00:17:35
recovery email right and for me if I
00:17:37
lost my personal Facebook account that
00:17:39
might be one of them good problems
00:17:40
because I have so many burners on
00:17:42
Facebook that that have I have so many
00:17:44
burners on Facebook and other other ways
00:17:47
to access the um public page for
00:17:50
Echoplex media such as being like hey
00:17:52
Matt can you post this thing for me on
00:17:55
Facebook but um yeah this is I don't I
00:17:58
mean I'm not not you know if somebody
00:17:59
would have told me um that if you know
00:18:02
someone because this is someone would
00:18:03
have to be pretty sophisticated not just
00:18:06
technically but um in a social
00:18:07
engineering way to get a hold of your U
00:18:10
key and then clone it well yeah I mean
00:18:11
that's the silly thing like if they get
00:18:13
a hold of your U key they could just use
00:18:15
it yeah what the [ __ ] do they need what
00:18:16
the [ __ ] do they need a copy of it and
00:18:19
it's like I mean you have to have like
00:18:20
an oscilloscope or something like or
00:18:22
special oscilloscope to be able to get
00:18:25
the information you need to clone it
00:18:27
using this method
00:18:29
um so like it's not something you just
00:18:31
like quickly like have it for a couple
00:18:33
seconds you know and get it back you
00:18:35
actually have to take the key apart a
00:18:37
bit to to access the the chips and and
00:18:40
do it and uh it's I
00:18:42
mean you're right at that point why not
00:18:44
just [ __ ] steal it yeah then you just
00:18:46
steal steal the key but then still like
00:18:49
that's the SEC the UB key is like a
00:18:50
second factor in addition to a password
00:18:52
right correct mhm now I want one or
00:18:55
actually I want two yeah good good idea
00:18:57
you might want more than that because I
00:18:59
told you the multiple prices the
00:19:00
multiple prices are for different ways
00:19:03
of connecting cuz they're not all just
00:19:05
USB some are
00:19:06
USBC some are U I don't know what is the
00:19:10
the old uh SD iPhone I don't know if
00:19:13
they have an SD card one they might but
00:19:15
they also have and some of them were
00:19:17
support uh was it NFC yeah uh so you
00:19:20
don't even have to it in also UB is not
00:19:23
the only vendor there are other
00:19:25
manufacturers of uh like Hardware based
00:19:28
B two Factor authentication uh UB key I
00:19:31
think is just the most popular and the
00:19:34
most supported across you know every
00:19:36
everywhere that allows two Factor
00:19:38
authentication the other one that's real
00:19:40
cool they used to be and I think they
00:19:42
were running on like the old pager
00:19:43
Network sort of I'm not sure but they
00:19:45
were these little L LCD screens that
00:19:48
were like maybe about this big and they
00:19:50
just rotate a rotate a password and it
00:19:52
would be that's
00:19:53
top uh top is uh a time-based algorithm
00:19:59
that basically is as long as I know a
00:20:01
secret and you know a secret we can both
00:20:04
calculate what that top top code should
00:20:08
be at this time and usually you'll have
00:20:10
a window of like a couple minutes where
00:20:12
any code within that couple minutes will
00:20:15
be taken uh so like Port 87 does top
00:20:19
codes U and I have it set up so that a
00:20:21
code will work 2 minutes into the past
00:20:24
and 2 minutes into the future so you
00:20:25
have a 4minute window to enter a code uh
00:20:29
where you know if if that code as you're
00:20:32
typing it in like flips over it'll still
00:20:35
work there's supposed to be valid for
00:20:37
like exactly 30 seconds but everywhere
00:20:39
puts in this window cuz like my clock on
00:20:43
my phone might not be the same as the
00:20:45
clock on the server that I'm trying to
00:20:47
log into right and it might just take
00:20:49
you who knows how long it takes you to
00:20:51
type the thing in and like well you're
00:20:53
like oh crap I got to look yeah yeah
00:20:54
there's all kind of stuff anyway uh we
00:20:56
ended up kind of In The Weeds on that
00:20:58
but that's good maybe we should do an
00:20:59
entire uh show about uh security and um
00:21:02
maybe security and backup for an entire
00:21:04
show sometime I think that'd be a good
00:21:05
idea good yeah I would like that I love
00:21:07
that topic all right everybody thanks
00:21:09
for checking out how the tech are you
00:21:11
you can find this on every podcaster and
00:21:13
on YouTube if you'd like to support this
00:21:15
project just go to Echoplex media.com
00:21:17
click the support Link at the top of the
00:21:19
website I don't know click around there
00:21:21
too I write one blog post a year you
00:21:23
should read my most recent one you can
00:21:25
check out our other shows my other shows
00:21:27
uh twitch.tv / Echoplex media and uh
00:21:30
have a great Tekken week

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Support us on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/echoplex Matt - YubiKeys Hacked! 0:00 Intro 1:10 YubiKeys Hacked! 21:08 Outro Show Notes https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oeBaRiL9-OY9P9uYinFfopycUbUCcb-gvSFq-Ek-mnI/pub Listen to the Podcast Version of the Show Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast... Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/6jRoMxu... Stitcher - https://www.pandora.com/restricted Everything Else - https://podnews.net/podcast/i9zlk Find the Show Online https://www.echoplexmedia.com/httay Join Mastodon on Port87 Social! https://port87.social/ Find us on Mastodon Matt - https://port87.social/@HistMatt HK - https://port87.social/@hperrin Dave - https://port87.social/@dave Echoplex - https://port87.social/@echoplex Find us on Twitter Matt - https://twitter.com/macourtney1 HK - https://twitter.com/hkperrin Dave - https://twitter.com/mistahbuhau Echoplex - https://twitter.com/EplexM

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